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Contravention 07?, Parking on single yellow with no meter or signs - southwark council
No_Parking
post Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 20:13
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Hello all,

I do apologise if this contravention has been covered but I did a search and couldn’t find anything. I added contravention 07? Because I dont even know if it’s a 7 or a 4, looks like a 7. In any case would anyone be able to help me construct an appeal letter? Never done one of these before. The situation was that I was parked on a single yellow line. There were/are no pay meters or signs on the road with restriction information but there are bays which were added previously when they wanted to add restrictions - they didnt add any in the end.

Tinypic is down at the mo so couldn’t use it. Used a different tool instead.

Images:

Outside
https://imgur.com/RR4EOoN

Front
https://imgur.com/tXn4wFi

Back
https://imgur.com/MCldXiR

Thank you in advance!
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post Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 20:13
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No_Parking
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 07:18
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OK thanks. Just checked the Trafalgar Zone online and there are several roads leading in to the zone via old kent road without signs and obviously the road I parked on contains no signs. When I appeal do I need to mention that one point of the zone (Cobourg road) via old kent road has a CPZ sign but the road on the other end of the zone (Commercial Way) doesn’t? Or should I just mention the entry roads (Ossory Road, Peckham park road) that do not?

Secondly if I detail the route I took, can the council check CCTV to verify this or is it just my word and pics against theres?
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cp8759
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 10:56
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QUOTE (No_Parking @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 07:18) *
OK thanks. Just checked the Trafalgar Zone online and there are several roads leading in to the zone via old kent road without signs and obviously the road I parked on contains no signs. When I appeal do I need to mention that one point of the zone (Cobourg road) via old kent road has a CPZ sign but the road on the other end of the zone (Commercial Way) doesn’t? Or should I just mention the entry roads (Ossory Road, Peckham park road) that do not?

Secondly if I detail the route I took, can the council check CCTV to verify this or is it just my word and pics against theres?

You need to detail the route you actually took, it's not a guessing game and you can't just pick a road with no signs because it suits you. Remember giving false information in a representation is a criminal offence that can lead to a £5,000 fine.


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No_Parking
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 12:27
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Thanks cp8759. The route I took had no signs however there were back routes taken so wanted to make sure there were no issues with this e.g going through an estate
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cp8759
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 12:51
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Gateway signs would only be at the entrance to the zone, so going through side streets would make no difference unless you went out of the zone and then back into it.


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No_Parking
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 13:19
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OK. I came in from Old Kent Road where the zone begins and there were no signs on the road I used so I may have me a case.
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cp8759
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 13:25
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QUOTE (No_Parking @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 13:19) *
OK. I came in from Old Kent Road where the zone begins and there were no signs on the road I used so I may have me a case.

As I think I mentioned, you're going to want to take your own photos of your entrance point.


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Neil B
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 14:05
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 13:25) *
QUOTE (No_Parking @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 13:19) *
OK. I came in from Old Kent Road where the zone begins and there were no signs on the road I used so I may have me a case.

As I think I mentioned, you're going to want to take your own photos of your entrance point.


He has.
QUOTE (No_Parking @ Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 19:06) *
So, came in via Peckham Park Road and as Neil has pointed out, no signs:

http://imgur.com/uGnEa8J

http://imgur.com/h8AA1Sa

Albeit the signs might be further down. (but gsv shows none)


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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No_Parking
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 15:02
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Just looked through my extra pics and found this:

http://imgur.com/m8XdUy3

Does say loading bay on the sign but again no council signs. Just adding this here to give a holistic view.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 15:22
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heres a map of the zone

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AtBHPhdJdppVqlOm37M9TnM6ePFK

You can see that old kent rd is the outer boundary so the signs on all the side roads are the relevant ones


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No_Parking
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 15:57
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 15:22) *
heres a map of the zone

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AtBHPhdJdppVqlOm37M9TnM6ePFK

You can see that old kent rd is the outer boundary so the signs on all the side roads are the relevant ones


Thank you. Appreciate the effort in looking this up. So should all roads leading in to the zone from old kent have signs?
On the map you’ve added starting from after Albany Road these are the streets that do or do not have signs either at the beginning of the road or by the bays:

Cobourg Road - yes
Oakley place - yes (on bays)
Trafalgar Av. - no
Glengall Road - yes
Ossory Road - no
Malt street - yes
Peckham Park Road - no
Ethnard Road - yes
Commercial way (end of the zone) - no

Edit: Turns out I can request to see cctv footage so have requested it.

This post has been edited by No_Parking: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 16:11
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 16:08
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So can you follow a route from the boundary to where you parked without passing a sign if so you can win


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Neil B
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 16:19
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QUOTE (No_Parking @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 15:57) *
Edit: Turns out I can request to see cctv footage so have requested it.

Don't be daft.

Where have you just read that from.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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No_Parking
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 16:44
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 16:19) *
QUOTE (No_Parking @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 15:57) *
Edit: Turns out I can request to see cctv footage so have requested it.

Don't be daft.

Where have you just read that from.


Yep I know, I was shocked to see it myself but I’m curious by nature so thought why not. It would be interesting to see if they provide anything which I doubt they will. It’s actually a link on their website:

http://southwarkpcns.apcoa.com

Don’t ask how I managed to get here, I just did.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 16:56
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QUOTE (No_Parking @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 16:44) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 16:19) *
QUOTE (No_Parking @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 15:57) *
Edit: Turns out I can request to see cctv footage so have requested it.

Don't be daft.

Where have you just read that from.


Yep I know, I was shocked to see it myself but I’m curious by nature so thought why not. It would be interesting to see if they provide anything which I doubt they will. It’s actually a link on their website:

http://southwarkpcns.apcoa.com

Don’t ask how I managed to get here, I just did.


CCTV cannot now be used for parking contraventions of this sort so no there will not be any and no you are not entitled to see it and no it would not raise a winning appeal point


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No_Parking
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 17:12
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Any suggestions on how to word the appeal? Anything I should/should not include other than my own photos
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Neil B
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 17:29
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QUOTE (No_Parking @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 16:44) *
Yep I know, I was shocked to see it myself but I’m curious by nature so thought why not. It would be interesting to see if they provide anything which I doubt they will. It’s actually a link on their website:

http://southwarkpcns.apcoa.com

Don’t ask how I managed to get here, I just did.

You might recall we asked for council pics.
Now you've finally found where to look where are they?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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No_Parking
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 18:07
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Hadn’t forgotten, just needed to get myself to a desktop!


https://imgur.com/zZ2eRYW
https://imgur.com/VJQOUiU
https://imgur.com/0s7aTMs
https://imgur.com/iDWWqBW
https://imgur.com/zZ2eRYW

Came back to something stuck on my car other than the ticket plus my wing mirror bent backwards. Nothing surprising for the area...
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cp8759
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 19:43
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 16:56) *
CCTV cannot now be used for parking contraventions of this sort so no there will not be any and no you are not entitled to see it and no it would not raise a winning appeal point

CCTV cannot be used as the basis to issue a PCN, that doesn't mean it can't be used at all in adjudication proceedings. The question No_Parking asked was "Secondly if I detail the route I took, can the council check CCTV to verify this or is it just my word and pics against theres?", the answer to this is yes they can (Southwark is full of CCTV cameras), but it's unlikely they would.

Legally, if No_Parking says "I took such and such a route" and the council turn up at the tribunal with CCTV footage saying "no you didn't, look here's a video showing you took this other route instead", the tribunal can receive the footage in evidence because para 10(3)(b) of the schedule to the appeal regs says:

the adjudicator may receive evidence of any fact which appears to him to be relevant notwithstanding that such evidence would be inadmissible in proceedings before a court of law.

However, IMO Southwark wouldn't in a million years trawl through CCTV trying to disprove No_Parking's version of events because it would be a wholly disproportionate effort.

QUOTE (No_Parking @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 17:12) *
Any suggestions on how to word the appeal? Anything I should/should not include other than my own photos

All you really need to say is that you entered the zone via Peckham Park Road, and having checked there are no CPZ signs so you would have had no indication of what the restricted hours were.


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No_Parking
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 20:30
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cp8759 really appreciate your and everyones response.
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