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SJPN received following paying fine
Bexeleventybilli...
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 17:20
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Hi all,

I come seeking advice, summer last year partner received an NIP for one of the company cars at work, I was annoyed with her as she'd only done a speeding course the previous year but I had her check whether she had the car on that day and time and unfortunately, she did.
The notice originally sent was in an incorrect name and at the wrong address which was pretty awkward when the neighbour knocked saying they'd opened it and it was meant for my partner instead. Anyhoo, she called the unit and amended the details to hers and then paid the fine and sent off her licence, via Royal Mail 1st class and promptly put it all behind her and carried on with life.
Fast forward to Saturday, a letter arrived for her stating "Time Sensitive Material" and I promptly lost my rag with her, well she opened it to find it's an SJPN and she was like no, I paid this, it's a mistake, I'll sort it on Monday. Well today she's working and hasn't taken the letter to sort it, so I've read through and it says that she paid the fine but then failed to provide her driving licence so they've refunded her fine (hasn't hit the bank yet) and are now prosecuting her for 35 in a 30 and fail to give information relating to the identification of the driver/rider of a vehicle when required.
I've asked her if she has the proof of postage for her licence but she said no, it was 6 months ago, who keeps that?! But I'm thinking it would likely be a poor defence anyway as she hadn't chased up getting her licence back which she should have done and I'm almost worried that maybe it could make matters worse (if they could be) anyway.
So I'm thinking having looked at a few sites of people who specialise in motoring offences etc that her best bet is to plead guilty to both and hope she gets the 33% reduction on her fine, but I wanted to get some advice first from people who have experience/know how to handle this?
My other concern is that whilst she earns a decent wage, our cost of living is high (not frivolous, just an expensive area) and we have two young children between us, can they demand a hefty fine all up front and leave us unable to pay bills? Or even demand high monthly installments to leave us brassic each month?
I'm trying really hard to be calm and rational and have pretty much accepted that we have to just take it on the chin and hope for the best but it's hard and I'm panicking and trying to work out what can be sold to try and raise some cash for her fine.

Any advice very gratefully received 🙂
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post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 17:20
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andy_foster
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 18:03
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Ignoring your anger issues and her apparent inability to sort things out herself (seemingly resulting in you both deciding that you need to get involved and losing your rag), the stock response is "send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance". In other words, is your partner so incapable of seeking advice herself that you providing a second hand account of what you think happened is better than her giving us a first hand account?

The process is usually NIP and s. 172 requirement served on the driver (often after being named by the RK, or a chain from the RK), driver responds naming themselves as the driver, then they receive a COFP and/or offer of a course (if the alleged speed is within the guidelines, etc.). Avon and Somerset use a combined NIP/s. 172/COFP which confuses matters sometimes, but otherwise she could not have paid the fine if she had not admitted to being the driver.

As you apparently missed the "READ THIS FIRST" stick and the links to the NIP Wizard - which asks the basic questions which we generally need to start to offer meaningful advice, I would refer you to my first paragraph.

If you had taken the time to skim through a few similar cases, you would have seen that pleading guilty to both offences is just about the worst thing she could do. Instant 9 points instead of doing a deal to trade a possible 6 points for 3 points.


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Bexeleventybilli...
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 18:27
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Without wishing to be rude, my partner is well and truly burying her head in the sand and thinks that if she ignores it, it will go away, perhaps I have invited your response by giving the insight that I'm cross with her for not handling things so for that I will apologise.
She had decided that as the matter is causing her anxiety to flare up badly that she would like me to look into things for her and try and gain some helpful advice as we are after all a partnership and face everything in life, together.

Her boss who is the RK gave Avon & Somerset her details as the driver, one year prior to this she had completed a course following speeding in her own car so she was told she was ineligible to take another course and must either pay the fine or go to court so she paid the fine and sent off her licence and has heard nothing since until Saturday when she received the SJPN. She called a number on the letter and was told that could only help with online pleas, they weren't police and so unable to help with her individual case and advised her to either enter a plea online or fill in the paperwork.
I did read the sticky but was confused as she'd already submitted the NIP and paid the fine and couldn't figure where to go from there, hence asking here.

In case it didn't come across, my intention is to help my partner, which is why I came here to ask for advice at a time, when she is unable to handle this for herself, I may not be able to help her deal with the police/court but if I can take the pressure off her and do the legwork in researching/obtaining advice for her then I will.
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Jlc
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 18:33
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It would appear they didn't receive the s172 response. (Or it wasn't filled in correctly but seems less likely)

Unfortunately, the only safe way to deal with this is at court. That is to offer to plead guilty to the speeding offence in exchange for dropping the more serious s172 failing to furnish. (Not guilty pleas to be entered now or asking for the matter to be heard in the normal way at court)

I wouldn't recommend the 9 points route just to avoid court.

It is also possible to ask them to consider a fixed penalty equivalent sentence: (From page 453 sentencing guidelines here)

QUOTE
When sentencing in cases in which a penalty notice was available:
* where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence
itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point
should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be
imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in
these circumstances.


This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 18:35


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 21:27
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If she sent the payment and her licence, I can't understand how one was received but not the other unless she sent them to different places

I'm also puzzled about the S172 charge
How incorrect was the name on the original letter and what name has she been charged under ?

I don't know what motoring sites you've looked at but pleading guilty to both is absolutely stupid advice

In my view she should plead Not Guilty to both

Not Guilty to the S172 offence because it had the wrong name and was sent to the wrong address
It's also not in the public interest to prosecute because she had provided the information by sending the payment and licence

Not Guilty to the Speeding because she had met the terms of the COFP by sending her payment and licence
Alternative : On the morning of the hearing agree to plead Guilty to the Speeding if the S172 is dropped and ask the magistrate to fine the amount of the Fixed Penalty that couldn't be accepted for administration reasons that were not her fault

This post has been edited by Redivi: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 21:30
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disgrunt
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 21:39
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I'm guessing online payment perhaps?

When pleading not guilty to both, she can point out at although the NIP was incorrectly addressed, and sent to the wrong name, she didn't try to wriggle out of it, she phoned up, got the detailed changed and complied with the terms of the COFP.
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Logician
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 21:54
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QUOTE
Anyhoo, she called the unit and amended the details to hers and then paid the fine and sent off her licence, via Royal Mail 1st class and promptly put it all behind her and carried on with life.


So what exactly did she send off, the NIP amended to show her correct details, as well as the licence? It seems very odd her boss got her name wrong, even if the address was. It also seems odd that she should be charged with failing to provide driver details since they seem now to have written to her at her correct address, but possibly they picked that up from her telephone conversation and used it, but would certainly not accept that as a proper response.

Pleading guilty to both offences will mean eye watering insurance premiums for the next five years, insurers particularly dislike a s.172 conviction, so she really needs to go to court and do the deal as above, which is well trodden route that the court and prosecutor will be expecting. It will all happen in a business like atmosphere, no one is going to shout at her or try to make her feel small.

She cannot attend an SPJN hearing, she should indicate a not guilty plea to both offences and the case will then be transferred to a normal court. When she receives a date for that hearing, she should get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to her the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. She should say to him/her that she will plead Guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. Without her pleading guilty there can be no conviction for the speeding since the driver is not identified. If she does not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, she should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as she would have trouble speaking to the right person. Another poster in a more complicated matter has just tried to do that and failed completely.

If the police had received the form and the licence she would have paid the fixed penalty. The normal sentencing for speeding in court would be rather more severe than this, so she has been disadvantaged. Therefore she should point this out to the court and request to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level, which is a guideline for magistrates' courts in these circumstances. The actual wording of the guideline is:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances

She also needs to get a replacement licence from DVLA, she needs this anyway and will also need to hand it to the court.

For completeness it is worth pointing out that if she ignores all this it will not go away, the likely outcome is that she will be convicted in her absence of both offences, the fines will be calculated on an assumed net weekly income of £440 and she will receive 9 points.

This post has been edited by Logician: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 21:56


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Bexeleventybilli...
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 23:41
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Thank you all so much for the very helpful replies, they're very much appreciated 😊
Her boss is adamant that the correct details were sent over, so we're not sure if it was poor handwriting or deciphering at the other end, but it was definitely not correct. Her name whilst not dissimilar in spelling to what came was definitely not the name on the paperwork, it was only the car registration that gave it away to her that it was her that the NIP was intended for.
She telephoned the speeding unit and gave them her correct details and they updated it all on the system, she then paid online and sent off her licence with the paperwork she'd received as she'd been told no further paperwork would be sent out, however the system had been updated at their end.
As far as she was concerned it was all dealt with and she'd put it to the back of her mind as she tends to get anxious if she dwells on things, so didn't think to chase things up and I thought it had all been sorted and done with as she'd not mentioned it.
The advice to plead guilty came from a Google search for "Fine for failing to identify driver" and was somewhere near the top of the results, they also stated that magistrates will give a maximum of 6 points but will fine 125%-150% of weekly take home which is pretty scary. But the advice was that to plead guilty incurs an £85 fee whereas not guilty and then being found guilty will incur charges in the region of £600 for court fees alone, it's scary stuff.
We've talked things through tonight following advice from here and she's decided to try to make a deal on the day, as as much as she doesn't want to attend court, she cannot risk 9 points and a large fine and we've agreed that it's actually unfair as it feels like with the paperwork errors she was set up to fail and was never going to be able to meet the requirements for the fixed penalty, but she did not know this at the time.
As soon as she realised the fine was for her, she did all she could to comply and to make sure it was all sorted and paid, I don't see how she could done anymore. We can only assume that the paperwork and her licence were lost in the post or they arrived but did not match and so were disregarded and no reminders have been sent or other communication received regarding the matter until the SJPN.

Thanks again for all the help
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The Rookie
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 01:25
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Has she had her licence sent back? Have you done the NIP wizard as asked?

You could avoid court by pleading guilty to the S172 offence only, as they have no evidence of the driver she couldn’t be convicted of speeding, however that’s still a pior decision as insurers love to hate the S172 (MS90 endorsement code and 6 points, try some dummy quotes in a different name) convictions.

Maybe she gets anxious as you loose your rag all the time?

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 01:27


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Redivi
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 09:21
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That's looking clearer for me

She complied with the request and the letter containing the form and licence was lost in the post (or after arrival)
I assume she corrected the details on the form

It's absurd that, when the consequences if the police don't receive the reply are so serious, the form doesn't include very clear instructions to keep a copy and obtain a certificate of sending from the Post Office when it's returned

A pre-paid addressed envelope with similar instructions might also reduce the incidence of such cases that are a waste of the courts' and everyone else's time
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gilan02
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 09:31
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Has she at any point filled out the request for the driver details and returned it?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 10:05
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QUOTE (gilan02 @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 10:31) *
Has she at any point filled out the request for the driver details and returned it?

All in the thread above - yes along with the licence (its A&S).


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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gilan02
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 10:20
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 10:05) *
QUOTE (gilan02 @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 10:31) *
Has she at any point filled out the request for the driver details and returned it?

All in the thread above - yes along with the licence (its A&S).


I have found two "she paid the fine and sent off her licence" and one "she then paid online and sent off her licence with the paperwork she'd received" but nothing confirming she filled in the paperwork.
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andy_foster
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 19:11
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QUOTE (Bexeleventybillion @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 17:20) *
The notice originally sent was in an incorrect name and at the wrong address which was pretty awkward when the neighbour knocked saying they'd opened it and it was meant for my partner instead. Anyhoo, she called the unit and amended the details to hers and then paid the fine and sent off her licence, via Royal Mail 1st class and promptly put it all behind her and carried on with life.


How incorrect were the name and address? Was any subsequent notice sent by the police (according to the witness statement(s) in the SJPN bundle) or received with her correct details?


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Andy

Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit.
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