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Box Junction Penalty Charge, Entering and Stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Mr Happy
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 13:26
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Hi,

I recently received a PCN for stopping in a box junction when prohibited. I have read some previous threads and was looking for some specific advice.

Only my front wheels were marginally in the box and I had left plenty of room for other vehicles. To add to my argument one of the two lanes on the other side of the box junction was clear and therefore I was not causing an obstruction and could have moved forward if required.

I would appreciate any comments and advice regarding whether it would be worth appealing? Is there a deminimis argument to be put forward?

The CCTV and images can be viewed here:

https://onlineservices.itsvc.co.uk/WalthamO...ve/Default.aspx

PCN: FR27361415
REG: BA68RVR

Thanks for any advice in advance.
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post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 13:26
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stamfordman
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 13:47
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download the video and put it own youtube or such like
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Mr Happy
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 19:44
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It won't let me download the video from the website. Is it Ok to put the link on for people to view it? I can't see any personal details on the link. Is there another way to download the video? In all honesty you don't get much more from the video than the photo that is attached.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 21:26
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post the PCN


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Mr Happy
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 21:35
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Please see below:
FR27361415
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Neil B
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 21:36
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Forest/Kingsley methinks.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 10:34
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Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHol65dZwVs

So the actual video is a lot worse than the other guy's video, you were stationary for over 30 seconds.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 10:21


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 13:25
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We cannot check the PCN for flaws if you do not post it, De minimis is unlikely, but if the markings are faded enough at the front of the box, that could swing it but we don't know, because we do not know where this is


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Mr Happy
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 15:00
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PCN Attached. Is there any argument in the fact that one of the two lanes ahead is free? Also if I do appeal do I lose the opportunity to pay the reduced fine?

Thanks
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Attached File  PCN.pdf ( 470.15K ) Number of downloads: 35
 
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 16:22
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The VRM on the PCN does not match that of the car in the video



This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 16:23


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cp8759
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 18:30
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 17:22) *
The VRM on the PCN does not match that of the car in the video

Indeed, Mr Happy you need to ask the council for the correct video.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 18:37
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 19:30) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 17:22) *
The VRM on the PCN does not match that of the car in the video

Indeed, Mr Happy you need to ask the council for the correct video.


does he? As it stands there is no evidence why inform the council of their mistake.

Mr Happy is the car in the video yours?


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cp8759
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 20:15
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 19:37) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 19:30) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 17:22) *
The VRM on the PCN does not match that of the car in the video

Indeed, Mr Happy you need to ask the council for the correct video.


does he? As it stands there is no evidence why inform the council of their mistake.

It depends on whether the council provides the video to the tribunal simply via the public website, or whether they provide it separately. If the former, it makes sense to play dumb up to the tribunal stage at which point the appeal would be allowed for lack of evidence. If the latter however, it might make sense to try and get hold of the correct video.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hahadumball
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 20:25
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video by cp is the wrong one somehow, however viewing the video ops car does match whats on the vrm + video, strangely both videos they seem to stop in exactly the same spot, around 40 seconds though so de minimis is 100% out
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cp8759
post Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 10:22
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The correct video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHol65dZwVs

It's a long time to be stationary.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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rosturra
post Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 11:18
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The OP stopped - as a considerate driver - to allow room for traffic to turn into the cul-de-sac.
The OP was NOT prevented from clearing the YBJ by stationary traffic; as a clear exit was available which he chose not to use.


Does it really matter that he made no attempt to use the outside lane - surely it is sufficient that it was available?

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hcandersen
post Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 11:19
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OP, there is no point avoiding the obvious.

Claim it and justify it through reasoning.

I stopped on the markings, perhaps I could have stopped 0.5 metres or so further back and not on the markings but without any obvious traffic management benefit. I interpreted the YBJ in its proper context i.e. to demarcate a length of carriageway at a junction. In this case the YBJ markings extend beyond what is actually the junction of the roads, this being the rectangle formed by the extension of the parallel kerbs in the side road, the centre-line of the main carriageway and the transect across the side road where it meets the main carriageway. As far as it affected my circumstances, the YBJ markings extended by some 0.5 metres.

A contravention occurs only where the markings accurately demarcate a junction and it is not open to a council to extend these and then penalise motorists for stopping in the extended area.

I respectfully submit that the contravention did not occur because I was not stopped, other than possibly to a de minimis extent, at a road junction.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 11:55
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Personally I do not think the box design lends its self to the argument put by HCA


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5914609,-...6384!8i8192

I would be more inclined to go with the beginning of the box not being clear, so over ran slightly. It may be possible to continue forwards very slowly and so not have to stop.

With any of the arguments I would not lose sight of the discount. however the time by when they may issue a charge certificate has been truncated by at least two days and the statement if the penalty is not paid and they issue a CC it will be to late to make representations is prejudicial and could win on its own


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Mr Happy
post Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 18:36
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I've had a crack at the following:

I contest the PCN on the following grounds.

I put forward the the de minimis non curat lex principle regarding the alleged contravention as such a minor amount of my vehicle was overhanging the YBJ, thus causing no obstruction whatsoever to any vehicle either from the main road or the junction. I would also put forward that the Yellow Box junction clearly shows fading of the yellow marking, therefore making it more difficult to accurately identify the extent of the box junction.

In addition to this the notice states that I am in contravention of : 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The associated website states that “. You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear”, however from the images and CCTV it is clearly shown that my exit is clear as the right lane of the two lanes ahead is clear, with enough room to accommodate my vehicle. My decision to continue into the left of the two lanes available was only made once the traffic lights ahead changed.

The website also states: "Box junctions are aimed at preventing congestion at busy junctions." At no stage did my actions have the potential to cause congestion at the junction and the positioning of my vehicle interpreted the intention of the box junction correctly, by firstly stopping, allowing for passing cars and with the option to proceed into the clear lane ahead.

Therefore, in view of the foregoing, I require you to cancel this PCN forthwith and any failure to do so will mean that I shall take the matter to PATAS, will be appointing a representative and claiming costs. I sincerely hope that this will not be necessary.

If I appeal within the 14 days and then pay the fine 14 days after the decision I can still get the discount.

Thanks for everyone's help, I'll let you know if I have any joy.
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cp8759
post Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 19:15
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This sort of stuff:
QUOTE (Mr Happy @ Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 19:36) *
any failure to do so will mean that I shall take the matter to PATAS, will be appointing a representative and claiming costs. I sincerely hope that this will not be necessary.

Never helps and is almost always counterproductive.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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