PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Contravention 27 - Whitstable Reeves Way Canterbury
Phaeton55
post Mon, 25 Mar 2019 - 13:06
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 25 Mar 2019
Member No.: 103,095



Hi there, great forum you got going here. I am glad to have found and hopefully, I can get some help with a PCN regarding a contravention 27.

This has PCN has been going on for a while now it was initially issued on 17/04/2018 at Reeves Way - Whitstable - Canterbury Council Kent Observation period 09:41 to 09:42

PCN copy here :
https://ibb.co/jLg6fK9

Parked here for about 15 minutes to collect goods from the office NHS region office. Within this short period of time, the PCN was issued.

Reeves Way is a dead end road leading to an industrial area at Harvey Drive with offices. There are loads of car parked on the street and the nearby car park.
Yellow lines are in place all over this area apart from the dropped footway where the car was parked during the alleged contravention. (although there is a second one further down with double yellow lines)

Location : https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3563434,1.0...3312!8i6656
(By toggling the years in the top left hand corner you can change see the dropped kerb)

I haven't got the original PCN and didn't receive a NTO. Once the Charge Certificate arrived on 22.06.2018, I enquired about evidence and CEO Notes.
Received a reply on 18.07.2018 with evidence and notes.
Photo evidence: https://ibb.co/frDSWnR

Reply and CEO notes: https://ibb.co/L6c9GmG

As there was no opportunity to appeal I have left it unchallenged and decided to wait to get it to go to make Witness state statement this took a couple of months I finally received it and submitted this on 19.02.2019.

On 27.02.19 I received the new Notice to Owner with cover letter including a reference to a recent Adjudication.

Copy NTO front and back
Front: https://ibb.co/CVMSTRM
Back: https://ibb.co/4VhtZYm

Cover Letter
https://ibb.co/dLg4Rpf

I took some time to get the information of the Traffic Penalty Tribunal but here is the copy of the recent adjudication case that the Council is referring too:
https://ibb.co/S0dPDSC

Hopefully, this will help to get the paper trail and events so far smile.gif

In the CEO notes the is a remark that the car was blocking a wheelchair user doe this require for a CEO to record more evidence or should I request more ( telephone call records etc). It is very unlikely there was a wheelchair user present let alone any pedestrians in this road.
Should the CEO have waited longer than the 1-minute observation? I noticed there is a 20 minute period for loading and unloading. Also, the note states the car was fully parked on the dropped kerb. However, this was not the case.

A little further down the road there is also a dropped kerb with double yellow lines along it.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3560534,1.0...3312!8i6656

For some reason these yellow lines have not been put in place at the location of the contravention : https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3563408,1.0...3312!8i6656

Any grounds to appeal based on the documents provided? Or appeal and hope the council won't reply in time and try and get it cancelled that way?


Your help in this matter will be much appreciated.

This post has been edited by Phaeton55: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 - 13:17
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 39)
Advertisement
post Mon, 25 Mar 2019 - 13:06
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Phaeton55
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 12:59
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 25 Mar 2019
Member No.: 103,095



Thank you for summarising the case and indeed I need to make representation sharply smile.gif

“On receipt of an OfR you submitted an in-time witness statement on the grounds that you did not receive the NTO (pl confirm) and were then served with a NTO dated 27 Feb.’’

This is indeed the case, I made a witness statement on those grounds.

‘The delay between the authority issuing the CC and the OfR is substantial and unexplained. Perhaps you were still bombarding them with queries, who knows?’

I did not engage in any other (informal) communication regarding this PCN with the Council. I even thought I got away with this penalty given the long period between the CC en OfR smile.gif

So according to you, the best case scenario would be that I should be offered the discount to settle this PCN at 35 pounds in this case?

My appeal should be based on the procedural impropriety where it fails to advise the recipient of action it must take if payment has not been made within the specified period. Request clarification on DYLs and the substantial delay between the CC and the OfR and ask to explain this.

Is this an option to include? - regulation 3(2)(b)(ii) of the appeals regulations is missing on the PCN?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 13:06
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,241
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (Phaeton55 @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 12:59) *
So according to you, the best case scenario would be that I should be offered the discount to settle this PCN at 35 pounds in this case?

I don't see where HCA said that?

I'd be looking to win.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phaeton55
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 13:24
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 25 Mar 2019
Member No.: 103,095



Hi Neil B,

I must have misinterpreted that from this sentence:
I see no point in debating the contravention, it's clear in the photos and frankly at adjudication would only undermine your credibility.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 13:28
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,432
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



The appeal should win on the technicalities in procedure that others have identified.

But if they fail the most you'll be paying is £35 as that was not open to you when it should have been.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 13:43
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,442
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Reps under 2 headings:

Contravention
Procedural impropriety

As regards the contravention, I have to rely on the authority's photos because not only did I not find a PCN on my car when I returned, the subsequent NTO went astray. Consequently I do not have any clear recollection of events at the time other than I was on duty (if true) and parked in order to deliver *** to ***. As far as I can recall, this took no more than 15 minutes. ( do you have any evidence?)

I can see that the photos show my vehicle parked adjacent to an unmarked length of road - in fact a gap in an otherwise continuous length of DYL on that side of the road. For some reason, the council have elected to discontinue the DYL at exactly where the dropped footway is located. This contrasts with the situation on the opposite side where there are DYL marked by the complementary dropped footway. But both seriously mislead the motorist. The former because, by discontinuing the DYL, the council have left an unmarked length of road which acts as a magnet to drivers looking for somewhere to stop only to find that they have exposed themselves to a parking penalty for a different contravention which needs no signs, the latter because although DYL have ben placed, these only restrict waiting and not unloading whereas other than in very limited cases a dropped footway prohibits both.
Why have the council chosen to mark the dripped footways in this way?


This would be my take on the contravention aspect except that when you end your reps you should state that 'given these reps, the PCN should be cancelled under statutory grounds or alternatively by the exercise of the council's discretion.

(the contravention aspect really just opens up possible additional avenues should the matter go to adjudication but also gives them the opening to re-offer the discount)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phaeton55
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 20:09
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 25 Mar 2019
Member No.: 103,095



Thank you all for your input!

I have combined the technicalities and other info from the forum into this appeal:
Appeal PCN

Please feel free to comment, adjust or give feedback before I submit it.




Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 20:22
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,686
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Phaeton55 @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 20:09) *
Thank you all for your input!

I have combined the technicalities and other info from the forum into this appeal:
Appeal PCN

Please feel free to comment, adjust or give feedback before I submit it.


That puts everything on the table


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 20:53
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,241
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 20:22) *
QUOTE (Phaeton55 @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 20:09) *
Thank you all for your input!

I have combined the technicalities and other info from the forum into this appeal:
Appeal PCN

Please feel free to comment, adjust or give feedback before I submit it.


That puts everything on the table

Quite refreshing to find I couldn't find a thing to tweak at this stage.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 21:01
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,432
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



It's far too long but that's probably good in that it will easier and cheaper for them to cancel than to try and go through and work out out to refute the points. Basically I'd look at it and say - is this going to to cost us more than £35 in staff time?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phaeton55
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 10:50
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 25 Mar 2019
Member No.: 103,095



Good afternoon everyone,

The Council has now come back to me with a "NOTICE OF REJECTION OF REPRESENTATIONS".

They are now offering the fine at discount:

[sic] You say you did not receive the original PCN and on this occasion we will
accept the lower amount of £35.00

They have disregarded most of the formal appeal:
Regarding your other points made, the Council did not receive any infomral
representation prior to the Notice to Owner being posted by the Council.
According to our records, your first email received was dated 29.6.18, once
the Charge Certifcate had been posted on 22.6.18. The Council sent a
response on 18.7.19 requesting payment of £105.00 withini 14 days.

The Council has sent all PCN notifications to you, the registered keeper, as
required. We are statutory required to post the Notice to Owner document
within 6 months from the date of PCN issue. There are no further deadlines
for the other required notications to be posted to the registered keeper. [sic]


The complete letter:
Please find the entire NOR here in one PDF:
Notice of Rejection of Representations
[replaced the screenshot with one PDF file]

I am enquiring once more about the recent adjudication cases as there was only one case in the archives at the time of my appeal.

Any options to take this further? Once again your help is much appreciated.

This post has been edited by Phaeton55: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 13:11
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 11:42
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,686
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



So is it pay or fight, the NoR is not the worst I've seen but it tells you loading is not an exemption. It can be so they mis state the law


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phaeton55
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 12:06
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 25 Mar 2019
Member No.: 103,095



@pastmybest Don't mind taking it to the Adjudicator. However, will they generally offer the discounted fine in their rulings or is this on a case by case basis?

It also seems like they forgot to spell check that letter. smile.gif


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 12:39
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,686
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Phaeton55 @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 13:06) *
@pastmybest Don't mind taking it to the Adjudicator. However, will they generally offer the discounted fine in their rulings or is this on a case by case basis?

It also seems like they forgot to spell check that letter. smile.gif


The adjudicator cannot alter the penalty it will be at the full amount if you lose


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 12:40
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,442
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Where's the rest of the NOR?

As posted, it is grossly deficient so I can only assume a page is missing.

This is what it must contain:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/6/made

Where are the references to charge certificate, adjudicator's power to award costs, adjudicator's discretion to register an appeal made out of time?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phaeton55
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 13:09
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 25 Mar 2019
Member No.: 103,095



@hcandersen

Please find the entire NOR here in one PDF:
Notice of Rejection of Representations
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 13:40
Post #36


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,442
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Their last paragraph is deficient.

It does not refer to costs or the adjudicator's discretion to accept late submissions.

Procedural impropriety on both counts.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 15:40
Post #37


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,313
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



They have completely ignored the representations about regulation 3(2)(b), no doubt because they don't understand it. I would definitely appeal.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phaeton55
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 17:02
Post #38


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 25 Mar 2019
Member No.: 103,095



Thanks for your speedy reply guys much appreciated.

Can you guide me to some cases that have been won on the points made?

I have ploughed through the forum today. Unfortunately, not many people follow up with their results from taking their cases to the adjudication stage.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 17:31
Post #39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,313
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Regulation 3(2)(b) normally wins, once of us will probably draft something for you as it's not the sort of ground you can argue effectively yourself.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phaeton55
post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 15:34
Post #40


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 52
Joined: 25 Mar 2019
Member No.: 103,095



I managed to obtain the second Adjudicators decision just out of curiosity and further information for similar cases:
https://docdro.id/PW5w6KB

Appeal was lost

Will need to start drafting a letter shortly to appeal my NOR. I would appreciate some guidance for the grounds mentioned:

Procedural impropriety
* Does not refer to costs or the adjudicator's discretion to accept late submissions.
* representations about regulation 3(2)(b)

Any links to appeals that won on these grounds or letters compiled by other members would be much appreciated

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 13th December 2019 - 20:37
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.