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Bus Lane PCN for all of 40 seconds. HELP!, Received a PCN for being in the lane 40 seconds before the cut off tim
hopingforhelp
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 18:49
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Hi all,

I am hoping someone may be able to assist. I drive this route very regularly so know the timings of the route well. The cut off time is 18:30, I looked at my car clock which is set using RDS so up to date, it was showing 18:34 so proceeded into the bus lane.

Received a PCN but it shows that I was entering at 18:29.14 so 46 seconds before the cutoff time.

Should I appeal? I totally thought I was in the right. As it was over a week ago, the dash cam hasn't got the footage, so very disappointed there.

Any views or advice much appreciated.

PCN and images below.

Thank you

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post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 18:49
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stamfordman
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 18:58
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That's in the bounds of error and council should cancel.

You should beware of car clocks, RDS or not. Try FM radio and radio 4 on the hour beeps and see if they match your clock. Also, the change over of programmes on the half hour on R4 is a guide I use when parking after 18:30 and i always allow an extra minute.
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hopingforhelp
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 19:03
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 19:58) *
That's in the bounds of error and council should cancel.

You should beware of car clocks, RDS or not. Try FM radio and radio 4 on the hour beeps and see if they match your clock. Also, the change over of programmes on the half hour on R4 is a guide I use when parking after 18:30 and i always allow an extra minute.


Thank you for the advice stamfordman, any thoughts on the best way to phrase an appeal to ensure a win here?
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Neil B
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 19:43
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Don't rush.
There's a mistake on the PCN and we need the rest of it.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 19:58
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Mohamed Byanouni v London Borough of Barnet (case reference 218015398A) is a good reference for cases like this:

"This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being stopped in a restricted area outside a school when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Clovelly Avenue at 4.14pm on 8 March 2018.
I have looked at the CCTV footage and also the site images submitted by the Council. These show that Mr Byanouni's vehicle was stopped on entrance markings in front of Colindale Primary School. They also show that there is a sign at the location warning motorists that there is no stopping on the entrance markings between 2.45pm and 4.15pm Mondays to Fridays.
Mr Byanouni appeals because he says that he stopped to pick up his children from school. He says that he is well aware of the restrictions and that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. The Council says that its clock is calibrated according to the Atomic Clock, ensuring 100% accuracy. The CCTV timing shows the vehicle stopping at 4:14:18.
I accept the evidence of Mr Byanouni that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. I find that the alleged contravention did not occur. There must be some application of common sense. Motorists cannot all be expected to wear time pieces calibrated to the exact second according to the Atomic Clock. A motorist reading an ordinary watch will not be able to know the time calculated to the exact second.
"


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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 20:20
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As per Neil post all the PCN they state 21 days for the reduced rate. it is 14 lets see what else is wrong before you make reps


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DancingDad
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 20:42
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Phrase the clock update better in any challenge.
I relied on the clock in my car radio which showed 18.34.
As this clock is updated automatically via the radio RDS system I had no reason to doubt its accuracy and felt that 4 minutes leeway is sufficient allowance for margin of error.... as an example and if true.


Why do you remember 18.34 btw, seems very precise for something that happened sometime before the PCN arrived ?
Just a thought on what an adjudicator may ask.
Still ruddy ridiculous that a council will enforce in the last couple minutes, normal clock accuracy will account for 40 seconds with ease..... though was closer to 50 seconds according to timing of earliest photo smile.gif


May as well throw into the mix that they cannot enforce against S144 of the Transport Act 2000.... it don't exist.
Minor as they can against the proper act and the 2005 regulations so an adjudicator will not find on that.
But will flummox the council a little, maybe even some panic.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/38/section/144

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 20:49
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hopingforhelp
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 21:17
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Hi All,

Thanks for the replies so far, I really do appreciate it. I am a bit out of my depth but really could use the help to win this.

I remember 18:34 for some reason, I always check the time to ensure I am legit ok to drive in there. I just wish I had the dash cam evidence. I did look back at my texts to my wife and I was still on the train arriving into hull at 18:22. So still unsure how they have me at that time, I didn't run to my car or even speed away up the road, and its at least a 800-meter walk from the train to the car, then at least half a mile drive to where the incident occurred.

I have attached the rest of the PCN if that helps!

ANY advice on what to say in an appeal is very much appreciated!

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Neil B
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 21:48
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 21:42) *
May as well throw into the mix that they cannot enforce against S144 of the Transport Act 2000.... it don't exist.

No don't -- because it does.

Fooled me a few months back too.

Repealed for Wales only.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 21:50


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 22:10
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 22:48) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 21:42) *
May as well throw into the mix that they cannot enforce against S144 of the Transport Act 2000.... it don't exist.

No don't -- because it does.

Fooled me a few months back too.

Repealed for Wales only.



Actually I can't even work out when it was repealed for Wales.
Nevertheless, Legislation says it is up to date and there is no text in S144 ?
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Neil B
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 23:59
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 23:10) *
Nevertheless, Legislation says it is up to date and there is no text in S144 ?

That is what confuses me too but all Councils still quote it. A writing up glitch?

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 23:10) *
Actually I can't even work out when it was repealed for Wales.

In brackets - at inception of TMA, 2008, which Welsh use and -

commenced 2007/3174

--
As I see it, 2005 England Regs are written only under the authority of TA2000.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 00:00


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 08:55
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s17 schedule 11

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/20/schedule/11


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Mr Meldrew
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 13:30
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QUOTE (hopingforhelp @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 22:17) *
ANY advice on what to say in an appeal is very much appreciated!

As regards the time of detection, if it were me I would borrow the commonsensical logic of the adjudicator from cp’s post, in which case I would only need to reason what are the sensible real world expectations of a reasonably prudent motorist in the given circumstances, and attack the unreasonableness of the Council's expectations.

I would then expect the Council to see sense and cancel the penalty charge or if in the majority opinion here the Council’s expectations remain too high, I would weigh up whether or not to ask an adjudicator to consider the reasonableness of those expectations.

Dear Sirs,

The alleged contravention did not occur.

I drive this route very regularly and know the cut off time for entering the bus lane very well, which is 18:30. I looked at the clock in my car, which showed 18:34 and so I entered the bus lane. No doubt the Council will want to argue that its clock is calibrated according to the Atomic Clock ensuring that it is 100% accurate and the time of detection was18:29.

No doubt this is true, however the Council must accept that in the real world as a reasonably prudent motorist reading the clock in my car, I would not have had equal access to the time calculated to the exact second according to the Atomic Clock. With regard to the actual time of detection, the Council should apply a common sense approach to its expectations of a reasonably prudent motorist in the circumstances that the clock in my is not synchronised to within one minute of the Council’s clock, just like many clocks in many cars.

Etc


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I do tend to have a bee in my bonnet re failing to consider and fairness
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hopingforhelp
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 17:00
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Seriously, thank you so much to everyone who has helped. Mr Meldrew, I have to thank you very much for the written appeal, I have used it pretty much word for word and will let you and everyone else know the outcome as soon as I hear.

Thanks once again,
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Neil B
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 00:48
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QUOTE (hopingforhelp @ Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 18:00) *
Seriously, thank you so much to everyone who has helped. Mr Meldrew, I have to thank you very much for the written appeal, I have used it pretty much word for word and will let you and everyone else know the outcome as soon as I hear.

Thanks once again,

Nooooooo. You are rushing.
Have you sent it?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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