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Order for Recovery for 52JM
MuddyMud
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 16:19
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Hi there. I hope someone can advise on how I should plan my response to Ealing Council from which I have received an Order for Recovery. I will try and explain my situation and questions succinctly as I have already read some responses to other relevant cases which have been very helpful.

On the 20th February this year I was driving my wife (a key worker) to a vaccination centre in Ealing. We live in the neighbouring Borough of Richmond and had never come across an LTN before. On my route I drove between two planter boxes on Elers Road, Ealing, W13, which had a sign on them which stated “camera enforcement starts 7 December 2020”. Cars were parked either side of the planters so I was puzzled as to what it meant. 20 minutes later I drove between the planters on my way back home.

6 weeks later, I received 2 Penalty Charge Certificates on 07/04/2021 relating to “the alleged traffic contravention of 52JM – Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (motor vehicles)” It related to me driving twice through the LTN, a line demarcated by the planters.
I received no PCNs and given that it is highly unlikely for 2 items to go astray in the post, I believe that they were never actually sent out.

I was advised to contact the TEC to see if the PCNs were registered with them, which I did on several occasions over the summer but my PCNs had not been registered with TEC. I presumed that Ealing Council had decided not to pursue. Also in October Ealing Council removed the LTN on the road which I had driven along when the penalty was issued.

I was surprised that more than 9 months after the alleged contravention took place and 7 months after the Charge Certificates were issued the Order for Recovery has been issued for one (not both) of the PCNs.

I have completed the PE3 Statutory Declaration explaining I had not received the PCN, I have had it signed at a County Court and have sent it off to TEC. My understanding is they will process it send back to me a revocation of the Order for Recovery which I send to Ealing and then they will issue the original PCN which I can then pay or appeal.

From other correspondence on this site I don’t think an appeal based on poor signage or no advance warning of the LTN will work, but I am happy to give it a go.
My question is can I appeal based on the shambolic way they have managed this process? No PCNs, 2 Charge certificates 6 weeks later, then no communication for 7 ½ months and an Order for Recovery for only 1 of the PCNs (I checked the second PCN number with TEC and they have no record of it…yet.)
Is there any time limit placed on councils for issuing these notices? Is there any way I can ask them about the original PCNs which i believe were not posted in the first place? Any advice gratefully received.
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post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 16:19
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 17:21
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If you are at order for recovery stage you cannot appeal to either the council or the tribunal.

Post what you are calling penalty charge certificates ? we need to see these and also the order(s for recovery leave in all dates these are vital


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stamfordman
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 17:29
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You are doing everything by the book and are under no threat of escalation. Ealing is one of the councils that has a track record in reviving old PCNs but this looks like a glitch with mailing - we saw Greenwich do the same with a lot of missing PCNs at about that time.

We like to check exactly what you received.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited. https://imgbb.com has BBCode to embed pics on the forum. Set uploads not to autodelete if signed up and using https://imgbb.com Or use Google Docs etc.
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MuddyMud
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 22:07
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Thanks Stamfordman

i am attaching links from Imageshack. I hope they work. I have chosen a forum link which is thumbnail is size.

Charge Certificate



I received this on 7th April and was the first I had heard about the alleged contravention.
I am being picky but the second line says "on you on for" the second "on" is not needed and is clumsy English. More importantly
they claim to have served a PCN on me, which I didn't receive. Given there were 2 PCNs neither of which arrived, I believe the whole first sentence is false as no notice was served on me.

Order for Recovery




Received yesterday along with a PE3 and a copy of the original PCN, which was never sent at the outset. Is it a cynical manouevre to send the original PCN with the PE, or is that standard?. Do let me know if you need to see anything else.

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Neil B
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 23:43
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QUOTE (MuddyMud @ Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 23:07) *
Received yesterday along with a PE3 and a copy of the original PCN,

It isn't standard but it does move the goal posts. You affectively now have an extant PCN and can submit representations.

Before doing so, just check online to see if it is possible. It is unlikely they understand the legislation at this point themselves.

You sat you've filed PE3 but how did you send it to TEC?

-------
Can you please get away from your unsubstantiated assertion that the PCNs were not issued/served.

The relevant case to help you is the key case of Davis vs Kensington.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Sat, 27 Nov 2021 - 07:57
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2 PCNs, 2 CCs, 1 OfR so far! *

OfR sent to TEC therefore you have already engaged with the prescribed process. There is no making reps against the copy PCN to which this refers: you do nothing except wait. And when TEC revoke .......

..it depends on the grounds in your stat dec. Were these 'Did not receive PCN'?

If so, then on receipt of TEC's revoking order you do.....nothing. Your '...understanding is they will process it send back to me a revocation of the Order for Recovery which I send to Ealing and then they will issue the original PCN which I can then pay or appeal.' is incorrect, the order is sent to the authority and directs them as to the actions they must take, not you.

* - OfR dated 22 Nov. Given this, you should expect OfR 2 in short order. So, as you know the process 'I was advised to contact the TEC to see if the PCNs were registered with them, which I did on several occasions over the summer but my PCNs had not been registered with TEC', then I suggest you check with TEC on PCN 2.

And pl, pl get off this conspiracy theory which you've repeated, it's no more than supposition on your part:

I believe the whole first sentence is false as no notice was served on me.
I received no PCNs and given that it is highly unlikely for 2 items to go astray in the post, I believe that they were never actually sent out.
Is there any way I can ask them about the original PCNs which i believe were not posted in the first place?


Pl park this. If they have copies of the PCNs - we know they have at least one - then an adjudicator would accept they were posted as required. But of course in your reps (which you would make only when you do receive in-time PCNs) you would be free to test them on the issue(which could include requiring them to supply PCN history logs in any NORs) but other than them accepting that they made a mistake there's nowhere to go with this aspect IMO.

While you're waiting, I suggest you obtain a copy of/view the videos - you have a PCN and therefore the instructions for doing so.

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MuddyMud
post Sat, 27 Nov 2021 - 09:08
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I have sent the P3 to TEC by e mail (which they have said is acceptable) and they expect to process it within 2 working days. My declaration was "did not receive PCN"

The person I spoke to at TEC advised that they would send the revocation to me and then I had to contact Ealing, but you seem to be saying that I don't need to do that.

Where can I find the case Davis v Kensington? Thanks for that suggestion
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MuddyMud
post Sat, 27 Nov 2021 - 12:03
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Hi Neil B. I did check online but cannot pay the original PCN. The penalty charge now sits at £204 for the one with an OfR and £195 for the one with a Charge Certificate. The PCN letter I received on Wednesday along with the OfR is just a copy of the PCN and is dated 25 February. So am afraid it isn't an extant PCN.

My objective on here is to get a view on whether I have a strong case to challenge the notice. Feedback received so far suggests I won't be successful. If that is the case my secondary objective is to get the charge I pay reduced back to £65. As I never had the opportunity to pay up when the PCN discount was in place, through no fault of my own, I do think I have a very strong case to push for that. Getting the revocation of the OfR is the first step.

What I am not sure about is the next step; whether I should contact Ealing once the revocation has been processed. TEC said I should but on here someone said I should do nothing. My own preference is to do something and get this whole thing sorted and move on.

If there is a strong reason why I should not contact Ealing, please let me know. Thanks again for the help.
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Incandescent
post Sat, 27 Nov 2021 - 12:55
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When the matter is reverted following a Statutory Declaration, you're back to the PCN stage, so the discount becomes available, at least that is my understanding of postal PCNs. It is anomalous, because if it were for a parking PCN, the matter reverts to the Notice to Owner and there is no right to the discount for these. Others will correct me if I'm wrong.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 27 Nov 2021 - 15:57
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When the charge certificate is revoked by TEC the PCN is also deemed cancelled this allows the council to re serve a PCN on you (both sides back in the position they should be)

The council only have 28 days from the date of being notified of the revocation to do this and often forget That is why we suggest you do not contact them. The law tells them what they can do, you don't have to


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Neil B
post Sat, 27 Nov 2021 - 17:48
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QUOTE (MuddyMud @ Sat, 27 Nov 2021 - 13:03) *
Hi Neil B. I did check online but cannot pay the original PCN. The penalty charge now sits at £204 for the one with an OfR and £195 for the one with a Charge Certificate. The PCN letter I received on Wednesday along with the OfR is just a copy of the PCN and is dated 25 February. So am afraid it isn't an extant PCN.

And I've told you you do.
My colleagues here appear to have forgotten the law.

"(9)Service of a declaration under sub-paragraph (2)(a) above shall not prevent the enforcing authority serving a fresh penalty charge notice but if, when it was served, the relevant order under paragraph 6 was accompanied by a copy of the penalty charge notice to which the charge certificate relates, a fresh penalty charge notice in the same terms shall be deemed to have been served on the person making the declaration on the same day as the declaration was served."

Whether Ealing are aware of this, once the revoking Order is issued, is another matter.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Sat, 27 Nov 2021 - 18:17
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QUOTE (MuddyMud @ Sat, 27 Nov 2021 - 10:08) *
Where can I find the case Davis v Kensington? Thanks for that suggestion

Google?

It basically says that undue delays, like those in your case, are unacceptable.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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MuddyMud
post Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 11:51
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Thanks for all of the replies. Am a bit confused about the next steps.

Do I wait for revocation order and do nothing until I hear from Ealing. If that doesn't happen in 28 days then they cannot reserve the PCN? Is there anywhere that expressly mentions this 28 day deadline?

I will check with TEC on receipt of the revocation order what they do with it. It concerns me that the person I spoke to in TEC on Thursday specifically mentioned I had to send it to Ealing. I will get another opinion once the order is processed.

Neil B, are you saying that the PCN copy which I received on Thursday counts as re-serving the PCN, but Ealing may not be aware of this? As it stands I cannot pay the PCN charge of £65 online. My only option at the moment is to pay the £204 charge as the OfR has been issued. In which case are you suggesting I can contact Ealing and point out they have re-served the PCN and ask to pay the original £65 to settle it? Or do you also think I should wait until the revocation order comes through and do nothing?

I did find Davis v Kensington thanks.
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Neil B
post Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 16:22
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QUOTE (MuddyMud @ Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 12:51) *
As it stands I cannot pay the PCN charge of £65 online. My only option at the moment is to pay the £204 charge as the OfR has been issued. In which case are you suggesting I can contact Ealing and point out they have re-served the PCN and ask to pay the original £65 to settle it? Or do you also think I should wait until the revocation order comes through and do nothing?


Your PE3 hasn't even been processed yet has it?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 18:11
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 16:22) *
QUOTE (MuddyMud @ Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 12:51) *
As it stands I cannot pay the PCN charge of £65 online. My only option at the moment is to pay the £204 charge as the OfR has been issued. In which case are you suggesting I can contact Ealing and point out they have re-served the PCN and ask to pay the original £65 to settle it? Or do you also think I should wait until the revocation order comes through and do nothing?


Your PE3 hasn't even been processed yet has it?

do we know the copy PCN was served at the same time as the CC ?


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Neil B
post Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 18:23
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Yes, post #4


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 19:31
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 18:11) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 16:22) *
QUOTE (MuddyMud @ Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 12:51) *
As it stands I cannot pay the PCN charge of £65 online. My only option at the moment is to pay the £204 charge as the OfR has been issued. In which case are you suggesting I can contact Ealing and point out they have re-served the PCN and ask to pay the original £65 to settle it? Or do you also think I should wait until the revocation order comes through and do nothing?


Your PE3 hasn't even been processed yet has it?

do we know the copy PCN was served at the same time as the CC ?


I would like to see it to be sure but OK you would be correct subject to sight of PCN ( remember a copy PCN must be just that not just page 1)


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MuddyMud
post Tue, 30 Nov 2021 - 11:27
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Thanks again guys

Pastmybest, just to clarify the PCN was received alongside the OfR not the CC. It is a full copy printed on both sides, so not a photocopy.

I will let you know what the TEC says once I receive the revocation order.
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MuddyMud
post Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 15:47
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Hi again

I called TEC this afternoon and they said my PE3 had been accepted on the 29/11 and sent to the local council. They also strongly advised me to contact the council and work out payment. I just viewed the ticket online and the status of the PCN is still at the OfR stage so i can't pay the £65 PCN charge or challenge it yet without calling them.

The advice on here so far has been great. What should I do next?

Thanks

This post has been edited by MuddyMud: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 15:48
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Neil B
post Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 15:56
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QUOTE (MuddyMud @ Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 16:47) *
so i can't challenge it yet

I assume you mean online?

Does the PCN offer any other avenue for making representations?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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