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Asking for additional Photos
salesharks81
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 12:59
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Hello All

I have received a NIP for Exceed a variable speed limit - automatic camera device.

I am sure that at the time of driving the overhead signs were 60 until just going under the gantry at this point the sign cycled / refreshed and changed to 50. I was doing 59 on cruise control. On the photos they have provided the only photo with the speed sign on is when i have passed the sign, also on this photo vehicles behind me are breaking. The "time since speed limit change" is saying 23 minutes. I would of been on the M6 for 5 minutes at the time of the offence.


I have responded to the letter and paid for the speed awareness course but for my own peace of mind / answer my own questions i have asked for a photo from the same camera but from a few minutes earlier. The first reply from the police was to just send the original photos again, when i asked for the photos to be from an earlier time they said i needed to speak to the highways agency, the highways agency have taken the details and responded saying it would actually be the police that would need to provide them...

Are photo requests normally met with a negative response and am i fighting a losing battle?
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post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 12:59
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Gerfc1
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 13:02
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"Time since speed limit change" is related to the time that the speed limit is shown on the gantry, not you.


There is no legal requirement for the police to provide the photo - you would have to plea Not Guilty and proceed it to Trial.

Since you have done the course and the course provider has informed the Police and the matter is closed.
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Jlc
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 13:18
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QUOTE (salesharks81 @ Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 12:59) *
On the photos they have provided the only photo with the speed sign on is when i have passed the sign, also on this photo vehicles behind me are breaking.

Sounds like HADECS3.

The system measures your speed just past the signs (from the side of the gantry) and there's an auxiliary camera that takes a snap of the prevailing limit.

If it's showing 50 then it's almost certainly correct. Decreasing limits are subject to a suspended period (usually 30-60 seconds) before enforcing the new limit.

It's more likely you read the 5 as a 6 - they are not dissimilar.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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salesharks81
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 13:22
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Thanks for the reply.

I understand the speed change would be related to the Sign rather than myself this is the part that is confusing me as i am sure it changed at the last moment.

I haven't actually done the course yet the next available date was 6th April so its booked in.

Just a bit frustrating that the proof sent can not be confirmed with an additional photo, if i had a dash cam i'd know now either way but unfortunately i don't.

The other frustrating part is Staffs Police are saying its the Highways Agency that can provide the extra photo but they say its Staffs Police.

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salesharks81
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 13:38
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 13:18) *
QUOTE (salesharks81 @ Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 12:59) *
On the photos they have provided the only photo with the speed sign on is when i have passed the sign, also on this photo vehicles behind me are breaking.

Sounds like HADECS3.

The system measures your speed just past the signs (from the side of the gantry) and there's an auxiliary camera that takes a snap of the prevailing limit.

If it's showing 50 then it's almost certainly correct. Decreasing limits are subject to a suspended period (usually 30-60 seconds) before enforcing the new limit.

It's more likely you read the 5 as a 6 - they are not dissimilar.



thank you for the reply.

I think i'm just going to be unlucky on this as i can't prove it, i can remember the 3 overhead signs go off then come back on (funnily i'm in IT and switching things off and on again does fix a few problems)

I have looked at google maps and i would have gone passed 4 gantry's before the one in question so misreading the number would have been multiple times.
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Jlc
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 14:45
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Without your own dashcam your belief is highly unlikely to work at court.

If it was HADECS3 then there are a number of shots but I suspect they’ve released them all?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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666
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 15:19
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QUOTE (salesharks81 @ Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 13:38) *
[

I have looked at google maps and i would have gone passed 4 gantry's before the one in question so misreading the number would have been multiple times.

There is no earthly reason for all the gantries to have been showing the same limit.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 16:18
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What makes you think the police have a photo from a few minutes earlier? They will be processing photos of offences captured, I can’t see why they would have anything not showing an offence.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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andy_foster
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 16:42
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If the limit had been active for 23 minutes then it seems likely that there were earlier offences recorded. There would slso be likely to be offences recorded during the 60 limit if that was active just before the OP was caught.


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southpaw82
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 16:46
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 16:42) *
If the limit had been active for 23 minutes then it seems likely that there were earlier offences recorded. There would slso be likely to be offences recorded during the 60 limit if that was active just before the OP was caught.

True but I can’t see the cops releasing photos of other people’s offences, neither can I see them taking the time to edit them so as to remove references to other people. Still, I suppose they might be in a good mood!


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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TMC Towcester
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 18:12
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What losing 'battle'?

You've accepted the SAC and paid for it so the case is closed? Small wonder no-one is sprinting to help as there's no point?
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roythebus
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 22:04
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 18:12) *
What losing 'battle'?

You've accepted the SAC and paid for it so the case is closed? Small wonder no-one is sprinting to help as there's no point?
quite, it's a bit late to challenge after you've already paid for the course. Put it down to experience and keep your licence clean.
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Tivver
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 22:17
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Why not an FOI request asking the number of motorists identified speeding at that location at a time band before and after your own instance?
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Newbie David
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 22:26
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QUOTE (Tivver @ Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 22:17) *
Why not an FOI request asking the number of motorists identified speeding at that location at a time band before and after your own instance?


There are many exemptions that allow public bodies to refuse to provide information following a FOI request and two of these exemptions are

QUOTE
30 –(1) Information held by a public authority is exempt information if it has at any time been held by the authority for
the purpose of –
(a) any investigation which the public authority has a duty
to conduct with a view to it being ascertained -
(i) whether a person should be charged with an
offence, or
(ii) whether a person charged with an offence is guilty
of it,


QUOTE
(2) Information held by a public authority is exempt
information if –
(a) it was obtained or recorded by the authority for the
purposes of its functions relating to –
(i) investigations falling within subsection 1(a) or (b),
(ii) criminal proceedings which the authority has
power to conduct


https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/...-section-30.pdf
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666
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 22:29
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QUOTE (Tivver @ Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 22:17) *
Why not an FOI request asking the number of motorists identified speeding at that location at a time band before and after your own instance?

To what end? The OP has already lost his “battle”.
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Gerfc1
post Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 22:36
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Sometimes the Police would release number of offences occurred at the location in question.

They can choose to refuse.
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Sparxy
post Thu, 9 Feb 2023 - 02:10
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QUOTE (salesharks81 @ Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 13:22) *
The other frustrating part is Staffs Police are saying its the Highways Agency that can provide the extra photo but they say its Staffs Police.


Highways may not be able to release images from the cameras, but if you ask them for the speed limits displayed on the gantry signs around a certain date/time/gantry location or identifier, they have previously obliged and provided that information. Your NIP may have had a gantry identifier on it (in the "Location"). A FOI may be required however.

This post has been edited by Sparxy: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 - 02:21
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cp8759
post Thu, 9 Feb 2023 - 21:17
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QUOTE (Newbie David @ Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 22:26) *
There are many exemptions that allow public bodies to refuse to provide information following a FOI request and two of these exemptions are

The exemptions you cite are prejudice based exemptions, so the authority would need to show that the prejudice test is met, see https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/...judice_test.pdf

In practice I know police forces release this data with no fuss, I've asked myself on more than one occasion (not because I'd received any unwelcome paperwork I hasten to add).


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sparxy
post Fri, 10 Feb 2023 - 02:23
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QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 7 Feb 2023 - 22:29) *
To what end? The OP has already lost his “battle”.


They've paid for the SAC, but not yet completed it.

If they fail to attend/the course does not run, then it will be referred back to the speed camera partnership will it not? Re-instating the 3 points/fine, or if time frame is short, a summons?
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