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FightBack Forums _ Technical Discussion of Enforcement Devices _ Speed cameras on Heathrow Southern Perimeter Road

Posted by: mwendo Wed, 1 May 2019 - 19:32
Post #1482000

I saw this on a poster (dated 30 April 2019) when I was at Heathrow Terminal 4 earlier today:


Subject: Speed Matrix and ANPR average Speed Cameras.
Overview/Impact:
Speed matrix and ANPR average speed cameras are being installed on the Heathrow Airport road network.
These are dual ANPR and speed enforcement cameras. They are utilised to improve security at Heathrow Airport, prevent crime and reduce speed on airport roads improving road safety.
Drivers exceeding the speed limit commit offences under the Police Reform Act 2002, section 59(1). This gives the Police the power of enforcement including the power to seize vehicles being driven in an inconsiderate or careless manor which includes speeding.
The Metropolitan Police will work in partnership with Heathrow Airport limited who reserve the right to challenge anti-social behaviour including speeding within the airport boundary.
The easiest way not to come to notice of the cameras is to obey the speed limit.
Within the airport boundaries the maximum posted speed limit is 30mph on single carriageways and 40mph on dual carriageways unless otherwise signed.
All forecourts have a maximum speed limit of 20mph
Staff car parks have a maximum speed limit of 15mph
Main Inbound and Outbound Tunnels 30mph and 20mph while in contraflow.
Your action and support is required to communicate this notice to your individual departments.


As I was leaving Terminal 4, some guys in a large silver van were just finishing the installation of a new camera on the Southern Perimeter Road between Terminal 4 and Hatton Cross. This road is 40mph and even though the road belongs to the airport, it is accessible by the public. The camera is of a design I have never seen before; it is a small yellow box with speed camera markings on it and a what appears to be a camera/flash across the top of the front face. It is the size of a ream of A4 paper that has been stood on its end and it was fixed to a pole using cable ties. I would guess that these are going up all over the Heathrow perimeter road network which is either 30mph or 40mph including the dual carriageway between the M25 and Terminal 4.



Posted by: Jlc Wed, 1 May 2019 - 20:23
Post #1482014

Will make someone a few quid...

Posted by: Richy320 Fri, 3 May 2019 - 13:36
Post #1482388

Anybody know what these are? They're springing up like weeds all around Heathrow airport.



Accompanied by this letter


Posted by: The Rookie Fri, 3 May 2019 - 14:07
Post #1482393

Sweeping statement to say drivers exceeding the speed limit all “cause, alarm, distress or annoyance”.

Over reach anyone?

Posted by: typefish Fri, 3 May 2019 - 14:22
Post #1482395

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 3 May 2019 - 15:07) *
Sweeping statement to say drivers exceeding the speed limit all “cause, alarm, distress or annoyance”.

Over reach anyone?


I look forward to police officers seizing their own vehicles, as I quite often find their actions annoying and alarming

Posted by: Jlc Fri, 3 May 2019 - 15:38
Post #1482411

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=127582 too

Posted by: Boomer Fri, 3 May 2019 - 18:55
Post #1482435

I know that some people think that the police are “knuckle draggers”, but when an official letter says things like “seize vehicles being driven in an inconsiderate or careless manor” - you do have to wonder!

Posted by: Richy320 Sat, 4 May 2019 - 08:34
Post #1482489

Bearing in mind that the car parks are private property but more importantly, are barrier controlled, ie the public do not have right of access, only pass holders, are speed limits actually legally enforceable?

Heathrow Airport has byelaws restricting speeds on non-public roads to 20mph. Is a non-public car park considered to be a road?

Posted by: Richy320 Mon, 6 May 2019 - 08:03
Post #1482889

Does anybody know what these cameras actually are?

Speed cameras?

Average speed cameras?

ANPR cameras?

All or any of the above?

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 6 May 2019 - 20:23
Post #1483051

One thing I can promise you is that there's virtually zero chance the 15 mph limits are enforceable: No limit below 20 mph can be imposed without the consent of the Secretary of State, and as a matter of policy the DfT will not consent to limits below 20 mph because speedometers don't have a 15 mph line, so a motorist could not know with certainty whether they were doing 14 or 16.

The signage is also not TSRGD compliant and the whole thing has a bit of a mickey mouse feeling. I wonder whether the cameras even have Home Office approval.

It might be an idea to simply ask for the TMOs (though of course none are needed on a restricted road) and make a FOI request for the Home Office approval of the cameras.

Posted by: callumw Tue, 7 May 2019 - 12:00
Post #1483133

They appear to be temporary/transferable, but here's the layout of the cameras as they are currently.





Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 7 May 2019 - 14:58
Post #1483191

QUOTE (callumw @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 13:00) *
They appear to be temporary/transferable, but here's the layout of the cameras as they are currently.



This leads me to be somewhat sceptical that the distances have been measured and certified to a standard that would hold up in court. I have a sneaky suspicion that any speed detections are disposed of by means of a scary letter. Remember some people believe everything the police say rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Albert Ross Tue, 7 May 2019 - 19:31
Post #1483300

although they are on private property; aren't those roadways, where road traffic acts apply?

If they are? Why are they hoping to use Section 59 notices for speeding.

Does a noisy exhaust S59 in the car park compete with the Airbus a380 Super Jumbo departing runway 09L/27R

The notice itself reads as though it is placed in a staff [sic] area, as though to prevent staff who know where they are heading, speeding past the sunseeker that is traveling the long way around the perimeter road at 20 mph and slowing to read every sign on their way.

Posted by: Richy320 Mon, 13 May 2019 - 06:33
Post #1484648

I think I’ve worked out what they are.

They are traffic signs!

The photos don’t show it but before each of the “speed cameras” is a matrix sign showing your speed. The actual “cameras” have ‘Westcortec’ written on the side.

Somebody has had the bright idea of adding a speed camera warning sign to the speed detector element of the matrix sign to frighten everyone into believing that they are speed enforcement cameras.

Posted by: baroudeur Mon, 13 May 2019 - 14:02
Post #1484791

QUOTE (Richy320 @ Mon, 13 May 2019 - 06:33) *
I think I’ve worked out what they are.

They are traffic signs!

The photos don’t show it but before each of the “speed cameras” is a matrix sign showing your speed. The actual “cameras” have ‘Westcortec’ written on the side.

Somebody has had the bright idea of adding a speed camera warning sign to the speed detector element of the matrix sign to frighten everyone into believing that they are speed enforcement cameras.



https://www.westcotec.co.uk/ wink.gif

Posted by: MrBoeingPilot Fri, 17 May 2019 - 14:34
Post #1485900

The speed matrix signs were up and working long before the cameras behind them appeared. The matrix signs are self contained with the radar detector.

The new cameras, which are all of some kind of case with a handle attached and somewhat portable looking have a camera, flash and antenna on them. The ones in the staff car park are identical to the ones around the perimeter road. I also noticed today a new sign in the staff car park stating that there is now ANPR speed enforcement. How they’re going to enforce a 15 mph limit is beyond me.

Not sure how Heathrow Airport can enforce bylaws for speeding offences. Just like parking offences on bylaw regulated land, I think there is a time limit and if you can obfuscate who the driver was for at least 6 months, they cannot take further action.

However, all the staff cars that use he staff car park will be registered to the employee who works at the airport and it will be interesting to see if they start to delve into data that was never given for this purpose, to track the employee.

When the police were contacted about these cameras their reply was simply that it is the Airport Operator who has installed the cameras and it is up to them to pass on information about them. The question asked is whether these cameras are legal speed cameras or just advisory and reporting devices? Also asked was “In the event that an individual is subject to action as a consequence of your cameras, can you kindly publish the technical data and testing of these devices that demonstrate their results are of an evidentiary standard.”

So, the police have passed the buck to HAL and so far, no response from them. Can a 15mph speed be enforced?

Anyone else have a view on this?


Posted by: Jlc Fri, 17 May 2019 - 16:36
Post #1485925

Byelaws say:

QUOTE
5. Prohibited acts on parts of the airport to which the road traffic enactments do not apply
The following acts are prohibited on any part of the Airport to which the road traffic enactments do
not apply:-
5.1 Driving offences
No person shall drive a Vehicle:
(a) Dangerously;
(b) Without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using that
part of the Airport;
© Whilst operating a mobile telephone or other handheld device; or
(d) Without prejudice to any notice from the Airport Company of the airport from time to time at a
speed in excess of 20 miles an hour on the Airport’s apron or roads or in excess of such other speed
limit indicated by a Sign erected in a conspicuous or appropriate position or by a Sign which conforms
to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, which speed shall not in any event be
more than 40 miles per hour except in an emergency.


How they'll pursue any offences is going to be interesting.

Posted by: Aiden Sun, 19 May 2019 - 23:10
Post #1486422

As it's now been over two weeks, has anyone yet to receive any form of communication from the police if you've been caught speeding?

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 20 May 2019 - 11:36
Post #1486499

QUOTE (MrBoeingPilot @ Fri, 17 May 2019 - 15:34) *
When the police were contacted about these cameras their reply was simply that it is the Airport Operator who has installed the cameras and it is up to them to pass on information about them.

Any information passed over will be promptly filed in the bin. The cameras would need to be Home Office type approved devices and properly calibrated to be used for speed enforcement. There is zero chance that evidence from privately owned cameras would ever be used for speed enforcement.

In any event, a 15 mph speed limit is not enforceable under any realistic circumstances.

Posted by: callumw Wed, 22 May 2019 - 10:02
Post #1487041

From a friend at Heathrow:

CODE
You may have noticed that small yellow cameras have appeared on the Northern Perimeter Road.
They are positioned just after the signs that show your speed.

These cameras will record your speed and registration index and the police will be informed.
You cannot be prosecuted but repeat offenders will be contacted by the police.

Please ensure that you stick to the speed limit.

Quite a difference from the "we can impound your vehicle" notice in the original post.

It never made any sense from the start. How can it be APNR when there are traffic lights and roundabouts between most of the cameras?
Other than that, the cameras weren't on the list of known enforcement equipment: 15 Different Speed Cameras Used in Britain

The link above may not be comprehensive, but the official cameras have a certain ... "look" about them that the Heathrow cameras lack.

Posted by: Fredd Wed, 22 May 2019 - 10:11
Post #1487048

QUOTE (callumw @ Wed, 22 May 2019 - 11:02) *
Quite a difference from the "we can impound your vehicle" notice in the original post.

It never made any sense from the start. How can it be APNR when there are traffic lights and roundabouts between most of the cameras?

I think the warning poster was very carefully worded to imply a link between the cameras and the possibility of police prosecution/vehicle seizure for driving offences, without actually saying there was one.

Posted by: Spinstorm Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 19:26
Post #1506551

To confirm - there are not speed cameras?

They are more CCTV cameras that record speeds and are not enforceable with fines and points?

I went past two of these today and exactly like everyone else I was thinking what the hell are they?!

Posted by: The Rookie Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:23
Post #1507155

They are NOT speed cameras, they are CCTV, whether they can record a speed at all is doubtful, hey rely on fear and ignorance plus the ambiguous signage.

Posted by: mwendo Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 18:14
Post #1545592

I went past Heathrow again today in very slow traffic.
I noticed some new cameras since my last visit and these ones were identified as "Westcotec Ltd" on the side (as Richy320 pointed out last year)
You can see Westcotec's website here: https://www.westcotec.co.uk/
No mention on their website of any of their products being Home Office approved though!

I had a search for Westcotec on Google and found this post of theirs from another location.
I see that ambiguous text seems to be a feature of Westcotec.

https://ibb.co/f42ygX0


Posted by: rgr2dgr Tue, 7 Apr 2020 - 10:51
Post #1561993

Hi all!

I was wondering whether anyone had heard any further information on these devices?

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=127582

Did anyone ever receive a notice from them? Is their evidence sufficient for enforcement of a fine/points?

Thanks!

Posted by: alsy Fri, 3 Feb 2023 - 15:32
Post #1762263

Hi there! , I am new here,
I found this post via a search engine as this morning early hours I am sure one of these camera things snapped me, I did not think i was speeding at all, i saw the lit up sign saying i was doing 46 and slowed down, then i saw that camera and i was doing under 40 but i saw the thing make a light go on and off so it definitely took a snap of me,

Does any one know if i should expect some kind of ticket please!? I would like to fight it if do and would ask for any advice ,
Many thanks

Posted by: alsy Fri, 3 Feb 2023 - 16:27
Post #1762273

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:23) *
They are NOT speed cameras, they are CCTV, whether they can record a speed at all is doubtful, hey rely on fear and ignorance plus the ambiguous signage.



Hello , Is this correct? seems they are unable if this is the case to issue any kind of ticket.

Posted by: The Rookie Fri, 3 Feb 2023 - 17:32
Post #1762288

Well no-one has come here reporting any kind of ticket….

Posted by: roythebus Sat, 4 Feb 2023 - 12:19
Post #1762385

Come back to us if and when you get a ticket through the post, se the sticky in the top of the page how to post pictures of penalty charge notice or whatever it is you get.

Posted by: alsy Sat, 4 Feb 2023 - 23:39
Post #1762459

QUOTE (roythebus @ Sat, 4 Feb 2023 - 12:19) *
Come back to us if and when you get a ticket through the post, se the sticky in the top of the page how to post pictures of penalty charge notice or whatever it is you get.

Thank you very much indeed
I shall do that and hopefully I will have boots and braces as back up !
cheers

Posted by: mickR Sun, 5 Feb 2023 - 00:13
Post #1762460

QUOTE (callumw @ Wed, 22 May 2019 - 10:02) *
It never made any sense from the start. How can it be APNR when there are traffic lights and roundabouts between most of the cameras?


error you're confusing ANPR with Average speed cameras

edit ive just realised the post date ffs huh.gif

Posted by: alsy Sun, 5 Feb 2023 - 00:35
Post #1762464

In my useless opinion I write this

We have absolutely no choice anymore the machineries are already taking over, it has become a real life beginning of the terminator

sounds like crazy but be sensible and remind yourself of 30 years ago

This is just a rant due to to my run in

Posted by: alsy Mon, 3 Apr 2023 - 06:46
Post #1772472

Just to update, I did not get any kid of ticket whatsoever,,,, so this was good news ,

Posted by: roythebus Tue, 4 Apr 2023 - 22:28
Post #1772681

Glad to hear it. ANPR doesn't issue speeding tickets.

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