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Incandescent
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 19:19
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Failure to update the V5 has become a continuing theme on this forum and clearly is related to councils using CCTV for bus lanes (and other offences if in London) where PCNs and all subsequent docs are sent by post to the V5 address. My opinion, FWIW, is that there should not be any split between In-time and Out-of-time declarations where the address has been an issue. It is high time government recognised people do not live totally tidy lives and that updates to V5s can take weeks not days. There also needs to be a law that prevents councils instructing bailiffs until DVLA has again been requested to provide latest name and address.
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cp8759
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 19:33
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 20:19) *
Failure to update the V5 has become a continuing theme on this forum and clearly is related to councils using CCTV for bus lanes (and other offences if in London) where PCNs and all subsequent docs are sent by post to the V5 address. My opinion, FWIW, is that there should not be any split between In-time and Out-of-time declarations where the address has been an issue. It is high time government recognised people do not live totally tidy lives and that updates to V5s can take weeks not days. There also needs to be a law that prevents councils instructing bailiffs until DVLA has again been requested to provide latest name and address.

That's never going to fly, the V5C address must be kept up to date because the address used by councils for PCNs is also the address used by the police, National Crime Agency, HMRC & border force to investigate criminal matters. I'm not just talking about speeding, the Hatton Garden burglars were caught because they were traced to the address their car was registered to.


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stamfordman
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 20:03
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 20:33) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 20:19) *
Failure to update the V5 has become a continuing theme on this forum and clearly is related to councils using CCTV for bus lanes (and other offences if in London) where PCNs and all subsequent docs are sent by post to the V5 address. My opinion, FWIW, is that there should not be any split between In-time and Out-of-time declarations where the address has been an issue. It is high time government recognised people do not live totally tidy lives and that updates to V5s can take weeks not days. There also needs to be a law that prevents councils instructing bailiffs until DVLA has again been requested to provide latest name and address.

That's never going to fly, the V5C address must be kept up to date because the address used by councils for PCNs is also the address used by the police, National Crime Agency, HMRC & border force to investigate criminal matters. I'm not just talking about speeding, the Hatton Garden burglars were caught because they were traced to the address their car was registered to.



This is a recurring theme, better off in the flame pit. My view is that yes, a vehicle should be linked to address but there seems no reason why it couldn't also be linked to the keeper's email or mobile number, which are often more stable entities for people than postal addresses.
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cp8759
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 20:34
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 21:03) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 20:33) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 20:19) *
Failure to update the V5 has become a continuing theme on this forum and clearly is related to councils using CCTV for bus lanes (and other offences if in London) where PCNs and all subsequent docs are sent by post to the V5 address. My opinion, FWIW, is that there should not be any split between In-time and Out-of-time declarations where the address has been an issue. It is high time government recognised people do not live totally tidy lives and that updates to V5s can take weeks not days. There also needs to be a law that prevents councils instructing bailiffs until DVLA has again been requested to provide latest name and address.

That's never going to fly, the V5C address must be kept up to date because the address used by councils for PCNs is also the address used by the police, National Crime Agency, HMRC & border force to investigate criminal matters. I'm not just talking about speeding, the Hatton Garden burglars were caught because they were traced to the address their car was registered to.



This is a recurring theme, better off in the flame pit. My view is that yes, a vehicle should be linked to address but there seems no reason why it couldn't also be linked to the keeper's email or mobile number, which are often more stable entities for people than postal addresses.

Well for starters all the relevant statutory documents (PCNs, NIPs, s172s) can only be sent by post. Secondly, where the police need to speak to (i.e. arrest and interview) someone, they need a physical address they can turn up to. Again it's an extreme example, but imagine some dodgy dude is seen bundling a child into the boot of a car and driving off at speed. How exactly does it help if the police can send him an email, or message him on facebook?


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stamfordman
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 20:41
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I didn't say not to send them by post. But if you say are issued with a postal PCN I see no reason why that shouldn't also trigger a text or email in case you are away.

Post is a 20th century system - I guarantee that there will be a change to some kind of digital identity for vehicles, and indeed it already exists in the DVLA's systems.
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Redivi
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 20:58
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I don't see any reason not to send the registered keeper a notification when there has been an enquiry - council or private - regarding the vehicle
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 21:22
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The issue is the total failure of government to embrace IT.

The government requires lots of information, provides lots of services, and requests lots of payments. It should be fairly possible to bring all those things together via a website and app which isn't as miserably rubbish as Government Gateway.

The issue is as Stamford Man says at some stage this is going to have to happen. The issue is that having messed up plenty of IT projects the government is now pushing third party suppliers. That means that every day we are adding huge amounts of information to systems that don't and won't work together. At some stage all that will have to be untangled, and it's getting exponentially harder.

This is the software we pay considerable amounts for in my Trust. It's unspeakably terrible. Nothing is intuitive. But of course the drive is to use it for even more because digital... this is the future... in a century we'll still be using this worthless crap, supposedly.

Privately most people see it as Microfiche on steroids. Put loads of information into a format no-one will be able to read in a couple of decades.



This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 21:22
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cp8759
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 21:36
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 21:41) *
I didn't say not to send them by post. But if you say are issued with a postal PCN I see no reason why that shouldn't also trigger a text or email in case you are away.

Post is a 20th century system - I guarantee that there will be a change to some kind of digital identity for vehicles, and indeed it already exists in the DVLA's systems.

That's going to be a real problem for people who don't own any sort of digital device.


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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 21:51
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:36) *
That's going to be a real problem for people who don't own any sort of digital device.

Always the argument but how many people is that now who don't own or have access to a device?

A very small number and dying off by the day.

Even if that is the case you can buy a tablet for less than £50 or go to a library or friend/family member for free.
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cp8759
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:04
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:51) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:36) *
That's going to be a real problem for people who don't own any sort of digital device.

Always the argument but how many people is that now who don't own or have access to a device?

A very small number and dying off by the day.

Even if that is the case you can buy a tablet for less than £50 or go to a library or friend/family member for free.

This still isn't ever going to remove the need to have a link between a vehicle and a physical address, so that in the event of serious criminality the police have somewhere to start looking for the person. This is only going to be a solution once we have teleportation, and the old bill can teleport someone directly from their current location, via gov.uk and into a cell. And there's a surprising number of people who simply don't do digital, in fact there's even people who don't user computers for religiosity reasons and I kid you not, they're the only ones who can file paper VAT returns.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:05


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StuartBu
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:15
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 23:04) *
snipped >>>>>

And there's a surprising number of people who simply don't do digital, in fact there's even people who don't user computers for religiosity reasons and I kid you not, they're the only ones who can file paper VAT returns.


I hope that word never catches on!!!
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:27
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You can't not do something very convenient to almost everyone just because a tiny minority can't or won't be able to access it.

There are a small minority who, for whatever reason, don't learn to drive but we don't put every conceivable useful service within reach of public transport. Councils already have a duty to provide accessible library services which always have free internet access so no-one is actually cut off anyway.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:48
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 23:04) *
This still isn't ever going to remove the need to have a link between a vehicle and a physical address,


To repeat - I didn't say we don't need an address, at least in the medium term. It's adding things, not taking away.

In this case, one more field on the form - mobile no. or email address and optional. That's it. Obviously some IT behind it but it's a trivial piece of automation.

I've mislaid my driving licence - last Sunday I gave up looking for it and went online to get a replacement. it came on Thursday, with the picture picked up from my passport and various authentication procedures.

If they can do that they can improve the vehicle reg system.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:49
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nigelbb
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 07:48
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 20:33) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 20:19) *
Failure to update the V5 has become a continuing theme on this forum and clearly is related to councils using CCTV for bus lanes (and other offences if in London) where PCNs and all subsequent docs are sent by post to the V5 address. My opinion, FWIW, is that there should not be any split between In-time and Out-of-time declarations where the address has been an issue. It is high time government recognised people do not live totally tidy lives and that updates to V5s can take weeks not days. There also needs to be a law that prevents councils instructing bailiffs until DVLA has again been requested to provide latest name and address.

That's never going to fly, the V5C address must be kept up to date because the address used by councils for PCNs is also the address used by the police, National Crime Agency, HMRC & border force to investigate criminal matters. I'm not just talking about speeding, the Hatton Garden burglars were caught because they were traced to the address their car was registered to.

The fact that the address of the RK may be useful to all sorts of other parties is just a convenient side effect of the requirement of an up to date physical address so the DVLA can chase someone if road tax is not paid.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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nigelbb
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 08:43
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 21:58) *
I don't see any reason not to send the registered keeper a notification when there has been an enquiry - council or private - regarding the vehicle

+1

It is at least possible to check retrospectively for any access of RK details.

Now that there is no charge for a SAR you can send an email to SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk asking for record of any access of your personal details.

I just checked separately for all of my cars & gave my previous addresses & a date range going back seven years & within a week had a letter through the post for each vehicle detailing the date of access & contact details of who had accessed the date.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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DancingDad
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 09:19
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To me the issue is people.
It seems like such a simple requirement to notify DVLA if you change vehicle, change address, change name and TBH online makes it simple and removes the occasions when slips get lost in post.
Yes people slip up but trying to re-write the whole system for a few numpties seems OTT to me.

However, the courts, especially TEC do not seem to recognise human weakness.
The system for resetting PCNs when notices have been missed only requires that notices have not arrived.
Accepted without question when submitted within time, invariably thrown out when Out of Time and council objects.
As said, very often the reason is that the V5c has not been updated so sent to old address.
Regarded as self inflicted so punter is penalised with increase to PCN plus bailiffs costs for an error when it is blindingly obvious that they would not have received notices.
Not much point in going further via an N244 and a District Judge as they often take the same view plus that will add costs.

That does add an unfair element in my mind which seems to overwrite the way that the system tries to act fairly in giving people a second chance when notices do not arrive.
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cp8759
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 10:25
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 10:19) *
To me the issue is people.
It seems like such a simple requirement to notify DVLA if you change vehicle, change address, change name and TBH online makes it simple and removes the occasions when slips get lost in post.
Yes people slip up but trying to re-write the whole system for a few numpties seems OTT to me.

+1, I agree it should be possible to update the V5C address online as well as (not instead of) by sending the paper form, but redesigning the whole system seems over the top. Despite the number of cases we see on here, the reality is that the vast majority of V5C addresses are correct.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 10:19) *
However, the courts, especially TEC do not seem to recognise human weakness.
The system for resetting PCNs when notices have been missed only requires that notices have not arrived.
Accepted without question when submitted within time, invariably thrown out when Out of Time and council objects.
As said, very often the reason is that the V5c has not been updated so sent to old address.
Regarded as self inflicted so punter is penalised with increase to PCN plus bailiffs costs for an error when it is blindingly obvious that they would not have received notices.
Not much point in going further via an N244 and a District Judge as they often take the same view plus that will add costs.

That does add an unfair element in my mind which seems to overwrite the way that the system tries to act fairly in giving people a second chance when notices do not arrive.

On the flip side you could say that all these people are dodging a bullet by not being criminally prosecuted for failing to update their V5C address. If traffic enforcement were really just about raising money from the government, the DVLA could raise a fortune by going through the TEC applications and sending the applicants a nice letter saying settle for £200 or we'll take you to court and you could get fined £1,000. To be honest if they spent the money on fixing potholes I'm not sure I'd object.


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DancingDad
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 10:47
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 11:25) *
........On the flip side you could say that all these people are dodging a bullet ……...



I fully admit I am in two minds on this issue.
It seems grossly unfair that someone cops penalty and costs of over £500 for a simple error but at the same time, it is self inflicted.
I suppose once again I am ranting against councils who enforce (or in this case object) not because they ought to but because they can.
We often see councils with a bland statement "We sent all required notices to address on record at DVLA" and TEC taking the easy route of declining the Out of Time.
No one uses any discretion or tries to sort the honest from the dodgy.
But it does seem that councils would not suffer from accepting many OOTs and starting afresh, many we see would be relieved to pay out full penalty instead of penalty plus costs.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 12:34
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It's even more of a nonsense when you consider that vehicles are registered to people or entities such as companies and not to buildings. My house is not liable for my PCNs. Its address is only one association with me and in fact could be less permanent than my mobile number, which I could have for life.
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cp8759
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 13:14
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 13:34) *
It's even more of a nonsense when you consider that vehicles are registered to people or entities such as companies and not to buildings. My house is not liable for my PCNs. Its address is only one association with me and in fact could be less permanent than my mobile number, which I could have for life.

But again, if the authorities need to *physically* find you because your vehicle is linked to a criminal matter, having your mobile number is not very useful if you don't want to be found. The moment it's no longer a strict liability requirement to keep your V5C address up to date, suddenly every person who might want to reduce the chances of the old bill knocking on their door will "forget" to update their V5C.


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