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Over speeding/Dangerous Driving In Scotland (A75 90MPH On 60MPH Road), Threads merged
nadeem iqbal
post Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 19:49
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We (2 adults 3 children) went to Scotland for 3 nights holidays area called Dumfries. On 11/08/2019 We were traveling on A75 single carriageway when wife started complaining of tummy issues (She had gall bladder removed surgery in 2017 and since then having diarrhea now and then and ball issues as she can not hold for long) We had Black BMW infront of us, in front of BMW there was a van. I was driving the normal 60 MPH speed which was the road limit, I saw BMW overtook van with speed and so wife said if they can overtake and speed then why not you do bit of speeding too so we followed bmw and overtook van too and then overtook bmw as well with a speed around 90 MPH then there was junction where one car just joined this single carriageway and was taking time to build up the speed so I overtook that car too by going into on coming traffic lane as due to wife's issues were rushing to reach accommodation for toilet which was around 5 miles as per tom tom. As we overtook this car after a minute or so saw in back mirror black bmw started flashing and it was police then we stopped on side of road, officer came and said you are over speeding and and over taking others by coming in on coming traffic way which is called as dangerous driving. They also showed video recording of our car from back side. We apologized and explained the wife medical issue and requested to let us go. Offer asked me to come into their vehicle I went and apologized and requested to let us go but realized it is not going to happen then requested them to let us go in the woods/forest as wife was in pretty intense conditions. Then they took us to nearest toilets which were around 5 minutes away and they only knew about this i assume those two officers were local. My wife rushed into toilets and I sat with them in their car where they re iterated that medical issue is not a justification of dangerous driving, they said there were toilets in the way and I replied we dont know the area and are here first time, they also said could call the ambulance etc etc and my reply was did not know the procedure and they said is the same number 999 to call ambulance as in England. Anyway they took my driving license and returned it after taking all details, checked road tax, mot, car physical condition, belts, insurance, verified driving license with dvla records, also took my children name and date of births. They said I put children life to risk as well (three children 8, 7, 4). I apologized and said only did speeding due to wife's medical issue and normally I am a nice driver. They said they are going to apply in magistrate court and I will be getting letters from court and then I can explain in court and it will be up to judge if he accept the reason dangerous driving.

My questions are
What will happen next please? What would be the likely outcome? I am driving since 2009 and once or twice had points in passed on license for jumping the traffic lights and over speeding by just couple of points and both times were caught by fixed cameras and been given 3 points and 90 pounds fine, but currently have clean full uk driving license since at least last 5 years.
My personal circumstances are that had a spine surgery in Nov 2018 and working now part time and still in phased return period with employer and doing light duties only. And on long term sickness.

Any advise and comments would be appreciated, I am having sleepless nights as without car will not be possible to come to work.

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post Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 19:49
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Logician
post Wed, 28 Aug 2019 - 00:13
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You must tell your insurer you have a pending prosecution for speeding and dangerous driving. That is something they are asking you to declare, and if you do not do so your insurance will not be valid. (Say 'speeding' not 'overspeeding')
They are unlikely to cancel your insurance.


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nadeem iqbal
post Wed, 28 Aug 2019 - 14:40
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QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 28 Aug 2019 - 01:13) *
You must tell your insurer you have a pending prosecution for speeding and dangerous driving. That is something they are asking you to declare, and if you do not do so your insurance will not be valid. (Say 'speeding' not 'overspeeding')
They are unlikely to cancel your insurance.



Thank you for your advise all of you.
I have contacted the insurance and talked about pending prosecution, and told them that I was stopped by police while doing speeding and expecting something to come through. He was asking the conviction code, I replied I don't have yet as I am not officially convicted yet and everything is still up in the air and still have clean driving license, then he put me on hold and discussed with someone I assume senior, then told that you don't need to do anything now but once you receive the conviction/code then phone us and then we will readjuct the premium. I said I am informing you about this pending prosecution as it mentions in renewal documents. He said he understands this. Insurance is renewed now.

Just praying not to be convicted, if any a light punishments. One of silly mistakes in life. Requested all for prays please.
Have a good day all of you.
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nadeem iqbal
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 15:33
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I am so sorry I have done massive mistake last year when visited Scotland. I was driving up to 90 mph on 60 mph road called a75, also did careless driving.
There were a police car following and recording us, they pulled us over and were shown video recording, they took my details and statement and allowed to go.

The reason why I was speeding was that my wife had her gall bladder removed in a surgery couple of years ago, and she was desperate for toilet, I did explain this to police but they had said that there were public toilets signposted on the road which we missed but in actual there were no signs at all.

Now I have received court papers, which I don't understand 100 percent.
There are 2 charges against me
1. you drove a motor vehicle at a speed exceeding 60 mph namely up to 90 mph
2. you drove a motor vehicle without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road, you did approach said junction at excessive speed and did fail to leave a sufficient breaking distance, you did overtake manoeuvre on a preceding car when it was not safe to do so whereby you did cross the continuous centre white line and did enter into the path of an oncoming motor van causing said van to take evasive action to avoid a collision.

Now it says case hearing date in Feb 2020, there are 3 boxes Pleading guilty, pleading not guilty, Written explanation, I don't understand what should I be doing.

it also says please find enclosed citation from procurator fiscal, you must answer the complaint and there are 3 methods 1. attend court personally, 2 arrange for your lawyer to attend, 3 write to procurator fiscal.

My questions are:
1. What should I be doing? Shall I just write to procurator fiscal and plead guilty with mitigating circumstances?
2. Why police says up to 90 miles per hour speed? saying this will it save me a bit?
3. I disagree with some points police said in statements for example they said the other diver had to take evasive action to avoid collision but he did not had to and he did not as far as I remember because there was enough space and he was quite far and I easily done the manoeuvre, also there were no signposted toilets there.
4. I currently have clean driving license, what is the likely hood of having point fine or ban?
5. My wife is on long term sickness of back and leg pains, I myself have had spine surgery in 2018 and still going through issues and doing reduced hours at work, my 3 children are school going, my wife is also a driver but fully dependant on me due to her conditions, my children are dependant on my, and I am much dependant on my car.
6. I have spoken with couple of driving lawyers but getting mixed advice, some says do an early plea guilty with mitigation circumstances in order to get discounted punishments, while others say deny and plead not guilty in order to get the footage and analyse the whole case, I am confused, can you guys please help me.

Regards

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Jlc
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 16:36
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Given they have charged DWDCA (careless) instead of dangerous is a plus. Scotland often pursue careless/dangerous for excessive speed alone. Showing you weren’t careless could be difficult.

In terms of sentencing you would be looking at 6-9 points but Scotland do discount points for guilty plea. A ban is possible but points more likely.

It’s the maximum speed that will be considered.

The lack of toilet signs is a non-starter.

They might consider the impact of any endorsement/ban but strictly exceptional hardship only applies if you tot. (12 points)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 16:36


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 16:54
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The very good news is that you are being charged with careless driving, not dangerous driving, so that even if found guilty you may just receive points on your licence, not a disqualification. As the speeding and the alleged careless driving were on the same occasion, if you do just get points, you will not get points for both offences if found guilty, just the one that is considered the more serious. If you are disqualified, it will not be as long as it would be for dangerous driving.

Most of us here know more about English law than Scottish law. If this were in England I would say it would be worth pleading not guilty in order to obtain the video footage, and then make a decision about whether to plead guilty to the careless driving charge, but possibly that is different in Scotland. As you have spoken to a number of solicitors, why not decide which one gives you most confidence and go with them?



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nadeem iqbal
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 23:23
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Dear JLC/Logician and others
Thank you for your reply

My question is
1. Shall I plead guilty and write the circumstances in which incident happened and request for leniency due to exceptional hardships
Or
Shall I plead not guilty and request for video evidence and all the complaints/statements against me?

2. I understand if I plead guilty in 1st instance then court might give me discounts when putting points on license and a financial fine. But how likely that they will give me discounts because I have read somewhere that courts are not obliged to give discounts. Further the lawyers I have spoken to, are saying that because court is trying to charge me for two separate offences (Speeding and careless driving) and considering this pretty serious because even a single offence on its own merit is pretty serious, is highly unlikely will give me any discounts and even if I plead guilty in 1st instance court would still want to see me in person before charging me. So a trial is highly likely. What are your advice on this please

3. If I plead not guilty now, I understand that a date of trial will be fixed possibly after 2 months, so in this period of 2 months, will I be able to request and receive video footage and all other complaints/statements from court and then make an informed decision to go ahead with trial, after receiving all about the case, will I be able turn my plea to guilty before the trial date? Do I have to hire a lawyer for my trial if it goes to that point or I can represent my case on my own? before the trial will I have a chance to speak with the prosecutors to do a kind of deal for example I am ready to accept careless driving provided you drop the speeding charge or voice versa because both incidents happen at the same time and consider as one incident? Is there a chance that I may be offered speed awareness course for speeding?

4. I understand both charges (speeding and careless) are pretty serious, but which one is more serious in terms of mark on DBS check/insurance premium increase/loan applications/jobs in the future.

Thank you for reading and replying in advance.

This post has been edited by nadeem iqbal: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 23:30
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Logician
post Mon, 3 Feb 2020 - 01:57
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1. See my post #25. "Exceptional hardship" is only really applicable when asking not to be disqualified for 6 months when you have 12 points or more, but your personal circumstances can be mentioned as personal mitigation.

2. You will always get a discount for pleading guilty, I have no idea where you can have read otherwise but it is not true. In Scotland you get a discount not only from the fine but also from discretionary points.

3. You should receive any evidence on which the prosecution intend to rely, and are then able to change your plea to guilty if you think the evidence justifies that. You do not have to have a lawyer at any stage. Yes you can talk to the prosecutor but a lawyer might be able to do so more effectively. Speed awareness courses are not available in Scotland.

4. Neither offence is likely to appear on a DBS check unless the police for some reason think it is particularly relevant. Careless driving is likely to have more effect than speeding on insurance etc.


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nadeem iqbal
post Mon, 3 Feb 2020 - 13:23
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QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 16:54) *
As the speeding and the alleged careless driving were on the same occasion, if you do just get points, you will not get points for both offences if found guilty, just the one that is considered the more serious.

I have been speaking with driving lawyers in scotland and they say it is likely that in the eyes of laws they will take these two as separate charges (Speeding and careless) althrough happened on the same day and time (speeding first and then careless driving), there is only 5% chance that court might consider this as one charge as course of driving. Do you have source of your information or this is something courts does in scotland as practise?

I am still a bit confused how to choose a best lawyer who can defend you most and get the best results, If they are there just to get you most punishment anyway then what s the point of spending money on them if they don't fight enough for you. Any points when choosing a scottish lawyer? any recommended lawyer please?
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Jlc
post Mon, 3 Feb 2020 - 14:03
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s28(4) RTOA 1988 applies in Scotland - here.

They can both be charged (and convicted) but the resultant endorsement is that of the most serious only.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 3 Feb 2020 - 14:04


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Mon, 3 Feb 2020 - 15:38
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QUOTE (nadeem iqbal @ Mon, 3 Feb 2020 - 13:23) *
I am still a bit confused how to choose a best lawyer who can defend you most and get the best results, If they are there just to get you most punishment anyway then what s the point of spending money on them if they don't fight enough for you. Any points when choosing a scottish lawyer? any recommended lawyer please?


A cynic might say that when you first talk to a lawyer they paint a fairly bleak picture of the likely outcome, so that you take fright and instruct them immediately and if it turns out better than that, you are pleased with their efforts on your behalf. I am sure that is not true and really they are just preparing you for what might happen. I do not think they are there to get you the most punishment, and will do whatever they can for you.

JLC has dealt with the point about getting points for only the more serious offence, if anyone you spoke to suggested you might get points for both, rule them out of contention. Sorry, but I do not have any recommendations, perhaps someone else might have?



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nadeem iqbal
post Tue, 4 Feb 2020 - 04:10
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Thank you for your speedy inputs, much appreciate that.

I would still welcome other respectable members for their inputs and any recommendations of a lawyer?

One more question is there a web site where I can check a lawyer if they are properly registered etc and their area of expertise, I believe traffic lawyers are basically criminal lawyers, correct me if wrong please.
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thisisntme
post Tue, 4 Feb 2020 - 11:30
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QUOTE (nadeem iqbal @ Tue, 4 Feb 2020 - 04:10) *
Thank you for your speedy inputs, much appreciate that.

I would still welcome other respectable members for their inputs and any recommendations of a lawyer?

One more question is there a web site where I can check a lawyer if they are properly registered etc and their area of expertise, I believe traffic lawyers are basically criminal lawyers, correct me if wrong please.


Them being properly registered does not necessarily make them any good. Remember they get paid regardless of the result. Yes, I'm a little cynical. I just 'won' a private prosecution where the lawyer got more money than I did. That was after he gave a discount.


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cp8759
post Tue, 4 Feb 2020 - 19:31
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QUOTE (thisisntme @ Tue, 4 Feb 2020 - 11:30) *
I just 'won' a private prosecution where the lawyer got more money than I did. That was after he gave a discount.

The objective of any prosecution (public or private) is to bring an offender to justice. If you're prosecuting someone in the hope of getting money out of the criminal proceedings, that may well be an abuse of process. Besides, you didn't have to use a lawyer at all.


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Jlc
post Tue, 4 Feb 2020 - 20:45
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ABD - Solicitors


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Fredd
post Tue, 4 Feb 2020 - 21:24
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 4 Feb 2020 - 19:31) *
QUOTE (thisisntme @ Tue, 4 Feb 2020 - 11:30) *
I just 'won' a private prosecution where the lawyer got more money than I did. That was after he gave a discount.

The objective of any prosecution (public or private) is to bring an offender to justice. If you're prosecuting someone in the hope of getting money out of the criminal proceedings, that may well be an abuse of process. Besides, you didn't have to use a lawyer at all.

A private criminal prosecution is a very rare beast. Perhaps this was actually a civil claim?


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Fredd

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southpaw82
post Tue, 4 Feb 2020 - 21:30
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I suspect so.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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thisisntme
post Wed, 5 Feb 2020 - 02:37
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 4 Feb 2020 - 21:30) *
I suspect so.


it was.



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