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Speeding ticket/fine from France 10 months later
xerxestheconfuse...
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:01
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We went to France last year in early September, and yesterday morning I received a letter from France dated 17/06/2019.
One letter is headed Ministere Publique with an address in Rennes Brittany - we didn't go anywhere near Brittany. It seems to indicate that I have to pay Euros 375 with a reduction to Euros 300 if I pay within 30 days. On this letter there is also a time, date and place - Vauclerc - which would indicate that I was there, because it includes my reg number and car make.

The next letter is a - Formulaire de Reclamation
Finally a letter telling me where to pay the money to.


I have no idea what to do, because I was very careful in France last year, and if I was speeding then everyone else around me was as well.

I have read some of the other posts on here, and none of the correspondence is in English and I was driving my own, UK registered vehicle at the time.
This seems an awful lot to pay for a speeding fine - my first ever in France in 21 years of driving there.


Any advice on what to do next would be welcomed.
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baroudeur
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 16:25
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 14:27) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:36) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:31) *
[b]Regarding the letter you sent me, I inform you that it has been rejected due to non-compliance with at least one of the mandatory rules prescribed by Articles 529-10 and 530 of the Code of Civil Procedure.

This is not in any way constructive, but personally I'd write back telling them in no unclear terms where they can put their Code of Civil Procedure.



I just find it beyond bizarre, because every one of those so called rejection points were clearly present in my letter to them. I cannot find anything to support a speeding fine of 375 Euros. The only thing I know, is that I was doing between 20 and 30 KPh over the speed limit. I do know that the previous speed camera on that road, which I would have passed a few kilometres previously was 110 and the one on the same stretch of road which flashed me was 70.



Speeding fines HERE

The penalties are based on the location, the posted limit and the excess above the limit. The base penalty then increases if the penalty is not paid within the time specified followed by a further increase after any further delay. It is doubtful in the extreme that the penalty is incorrect. The recorded speed is reduced by 5kph (or 5% above 100 kph) to arrive at the vitesse retenue (retained speed). All camera photos are checked for accuracy by two officers at the processing centre in Rennes..

The only way to challenge the penalty notice is via the official form which is why your letter has been rejected. The English version of how to appeal is below.

ANTAI "how to appeal"
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xerxestheconfuse...
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 17:30
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 17:25) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 14:27) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:36) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:31) *
[b]Regarding the letter you sent me, I inform you that it has been rejected due to non-compliance with at least one of the mandatory rules prescribed by Articles 529-10 and 530 of the Code of Civil Procedure.

This is not in any way constructive, but personally I'd write back telling them in no unclear terms where they can put their Code of Civil Procedure.



I just find it beyond bizarre, because every one of those so called rejection points were clearly present in my letter to them. I cannot find anything to support a speeding fine of 375 Euros. The only thing I know, is that I was doing between 20 and 30 KPh over the speed limit. I do know that the previous speed camera on that road, which I would have passed a few kilometres previously was 110 and the one on the same stretch of road which flashed me was 70.



Speeding fines HERE

The penalties are based on the location, the posted limit and the excess above the limit. The base penalty then increases if the penalty is not paid within the time specified followed by a further increase after any further delay. It is doubtful in the extreme that the penalty is incorrect. The recorded speed is reduced by 5kph (or 5% above 100 kph) to arrive at the vitesse retenue (retained speed). All camera photos are checked for accuracy by two officers at the processing centre in Rennes..

The only way to challenge the penalty notice is via the official form which is why your letter has been rejected. The English version of how to appeal is below.

ANTAI "how to appeal"



Therefore from your link, I should have a fine of 90 Euros, but they have stuck me with 375 Euros. I will try to do it online, thanks for the links.
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Charlie1010
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 18:55
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As far as I know the fine is 135 euros, however if paid in less than 15 days it is 90 euros, and if paid in more than 45 days it is 375 euros.
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roythebus
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 21:22
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Not wishing to hijack this thread as I've got my own going elsewhere, I returned my letter that was solely n French asking them to send an English version.

This has been refused and I've been told to go to some website and answer. It seems they're after euro180 now.

If I can remember how to post stuff on here I'll post it in my own thread. It would seem they're short of money and chasing errant forriners before 31st October!
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xerxestheconfuse...
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 21:32
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 19:55) *
As far as I know the fine is 135 euros, however if paid in less than 15 days it is 90 euros, and if paid in more than 45 days it is 375 euros.



If it was 90 Euros I would definitely have paid it, becauae I am a quite frequent traveller to France.

QUOTE (roythebus @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 22:22) *
Not wishing to hijack this thread as I've got my own going elsewhere, I returned my letter that was solely n French asking them to send an English version.

This has been refused and I've been told to go to some website and answer. It seems they're after euro180 now.

If I can remember how to post stuff on here I'll post it in my own thread. It would seem they're short of money and chasing errant forriners before 31st October!



Macron hates the English, so has probably asked the authorities to come down hard on us.
I really hope their economy suffers as a result of this.
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Charlie1010
post Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 06:38
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It’s nothing to do with Macron personally.
Like other countries they are fed up with speeders so are doing something about it.

This post has been edited by Charlie1010: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 06:39
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xerxestheconfuse...
post Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 08:54
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 07:38) *
It’s nothing to do with Macron personally.
Like other countries they are fed up with speeders so are doing something about it.



I have no problem with them dealing with speeders, and no problem with them fining me if I transgress.
I do have a problem with them laying an immediate 375 Euro fine on me and giving a quite intransigent and incomprehensible reply to my letter.
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baroudeur
post Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:32
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:54) *
QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 07:38) *
It’s nothing to do with Macron personally.
Like other countries they are fed up with speeders so are doing something about it.



I have no problem with them dealing with speeders, and no problem with them fining me if I transgress.
I do have a problem with them laying an immediate 375 Euro fine on me and giving a quite intransigent and incomprehensible reply to my letter.



They haven't issued a €375 penalty 'immediately'. The penalty has racked up from the original because it wasn't paid in the specified time limit. If you didn't receive the original penalty notice you can challenge but must use the correct procedure which is in the link I gave above.

The French are now complying with the agreement reached on cross border penalty notices and issuing them in English. If you still want to challenge to get the penalty back to the original amount use "designate or appeal online" in the link below.

ANTAI how to appeal




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xerxestheconfuse...
post Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 13:01
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 10:32) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:54) *
QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 07:38) *
It’s nothing to do with Macron personally.
Like other countries they are fed up with speeders so are doing something about it.



I have no problem with them dealing with speeders, and no problem with them fining me if I transgress.
I do have a problem with them laying an immediate 375 Euro fine on me and giving a quite intransigent and incomprehensible reply to my letter.



They haven't issued a €375 penalty 'immediately'. The penalty has racked up from the original because it wasn't paid in the specified time limit. If you didn't receive the original penalty notice you can challenge but must use the correct procedure which is in the link I gave above.

The French are now complying with the agreement reached on cross border penalty notices and issuing them in English. If you still want to challenge to get the penalty back to the original amount use "designate or appeal online" in the link below.

ANTAI how to appeal


Thanks, that is all filled in online and I have downloaded the confirmation PDF file. They are supposed to reply within 72 hours.
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baroudeur
post Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 09:11
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 14:01) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 10:32) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:54) *
QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 07:38) *
It’s nothing to do with Macron personally.
Like other countries they are fed up with speeders so are doing something about it.



I have no problem with them dealing with speeders, and no problem with them fining me if I transgress.
I do have a problem with them laying an immediate 375 Euro fine on me and giving a quite intransigent and incomprehensible reply to my letter.



They haven't issued a €375 penalty 'immediately'. The penalty has racked up from the original because it wasn't paid in the specified time limit. If you didn't receive the original penalty notice you can challenge but must use the correct procedure which is in the link I gave above.

The French are now complying with the agreement reached on cross border penalty notices and issuing them in English. If you still want to challenge to get the penalty back to the original amount use "designate or appeal online" in the link below.

ANTAI how to appeal



Thanks, that is all filled in online and I have downloaded the confirmation PDF file. They are supposed to reply within 72 hours.



Well done. Update us when you get a reply as the details will be useful for future use.
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xerxestheconfuse...
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 08:49
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Just a further quick update.
I have been monitoring my emails every day to see if my case has progressed.
I was on holiday in Vienna for two weeks and whilst I was there, I was unable to login to any of my email accounts.
Yesterday I checked the case and I am now more confused than ever.
Previously my case file had said - "This letter has been processed"
It now has this added - "A payment has been registered in connection with the file ********"
That is very strange because I have not made any payment.
I have not received any more letters either.
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baroudeur
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 16:08
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 09:49) *
Just a further quick update.
I have been monitoring my emails every day to see if my case has progressed.
I was on holiday in Vienna for two weeks and whilst I was there, I was unable to login to any of my email accounts.
Yesterday I checked the case and I am now more confused than ever.
Previously my case file had said - "This letter has been processed"
It now has this added - "A payment has been registered in connection with the file ********"
That is very strange because I have not made any payment.
I have not received any more letters either.


Normally, you can only challenge a speeding case in France if you also deposit the amount of the penalty with the challenge document. However, it seems that your challenge has been accepted into the system.

What was the substance of your challenge? As in the UK challenging the accuracy of the camera device is virtually impossible.

In the next stage, if your appeal is admissible, the public ministry officer (OMP) can decide to close the offence or to prosecute you before the local magistrate.

If the judge rules you liable for the offences you will then be sentenced to a fine of an amount of at least 10% greater than the amount of the fixed fine.

Bonne chance!

This post has been edited by baroudeur: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 16:10
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roythebus
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 09:31
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Does the rest of the on-line appeal appear in English? I licked the link shown and although the text is in English, the form appears to be French. confused as I have very little French.
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xerxestheconfuse...
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 06:49
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 17:08) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 09:49) *
Just a further quick update.
I have been monitoring my emails every day to see if my case has progressed.
I was on holiday in Vienna for two weeks and whilst I was there, I was unable to login to any of my email accounts.
Yesterday I checked the case and I am now more confused than ever.
Previously my case file had said - "This letter has been processed"
It now has this added - "A payment has been registered in connection with the file ********"
That is very strange because I have not made any payment.
I have not received any more letters either.


Normally, you can only challenge a speeding case in France if you also deposit the amount of the penalty with the challenge document. However, it seems that your challenge has been accepted into the system.

What was the substance of your challenge? As in the UK challenging the accuracy of the camera device is virtually impossible.

In the next stage, if your appeal is admissible, the public ministry officer (OMP) can decide to close the offence or to prosecute you before the local magistrate.

If the judge rules you liable for the offences you will then be sentenced to a fine of an amount of at least 10% greater than the amount of the fixed fine.

Bonne chance!



Are you seriously saying that I have to throw away the full fine before my challenge has been decided?
Call me cynical, but this little episode has changed my mind about the French authorities - and not in a good way.
My challenge was based on the fact, that I never received any original notification, because if I had, then I would have paid the original fine.
This to me smacks of corruption and is probably the kind of thing which has set off the "Gilets jaune" riots in France.
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Juan Carr
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 16:46
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QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 20:05) *
QUOTE (Fredd @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 20:02) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 19:59) *
(I would request, in Welsh, that they write to you in Welsh)
Unfortunately, Welsh isn't an official EU language.


Does that matter? If it is a European Court of Human Rights ruling, that has nothing to do with the EU, but the European Convention on Human Rights


Now this is interesting

Cornish has no official status anywhere but, since 2002, it has been recognised as a minority language under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. The Cornish Language Partnership promotes and develops the language in Cornwall.

Would that recognition be enough for you to insist that they issue your documentation in Cornish (where Google Translate most definitely won't help!)
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gilan02
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 09:46
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 07:49) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 17:08) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 09:49) *
Just a further quick update.
I have been monitoring my emails every day to see if my case has progressed.
I was on holiday in Vienna for two weeks and whilst I was there, I was unable to login to any of my email accounts.
Yesterday I checked the case and I am now more confused than ever.
Previously my case file had said - "This letter has been processed"
It now has this added - "A payment has been registered in connection with the file ********"
That is very strange because I have not made any payment.
I have not received any more letters either.


Normally, you can only challenge a speeding case in France if you also deposit the amount of the penalty with the challenge document. However, it seems that your challenge has been accepted into the system.

What was the substance of your challenge? As in the UK challenging the accuracy of the camera device is virtually impossible.

In the next stage, if your appeal is admissible, the public ministry officer (OMP) can decide to close the offence or to prosecute you before the local magistrate.

If the judge rules you liable for the offences you will then be sentenced to a fine of an amount of at least 10% greater than the amount of the fixed fine.

Bonne chance!



Are you seriously saying that I have to throw away the full fine before my challenge has been decided?
Call me cynical, but this little episode has changed my mind about the French authorities - and not in a good way.
My challenge was based on the fact, that I never received any original notification, because if I had, then I would have paid the original fine.
This to me smacks of corruption and is probably the kind of thing which has set off the "Gilets jaune" riots in France.

Some UK authorities have the ability to demand deposits of foreign drivers.
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baroudeur
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 12:48
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 07:49) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 17:08) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 09:49) *
Just a further quick update.
I have been monitoring my emails every day to see if my case has progressed.
I was on holiday in Vienna for two weeks and whilst I was there, I was unable to login to any of my email accounts.
Yesterday I checked the case and I am now more confused than ever.
Previously my case file had said - "This letter has been processed"
It now has this added - "A payment has been registered in connection with the file ********"
That is very strange because I have not made any payment.
I have not received any more letters either.


Normally, you can only challenge a speeding case in France if you also deposit the amount of the penalty with the challenge document. However, it seems that your challenge has been accepted into the system.

What was the substance of your challenge? As in the UK challenging the accuracy of the camera device is virtually impossible.

In the next stage, if your appeal is admissible, the public ministry officer (OMP) can decide to close the offence or to prosecute you before the local magistrate.

If the judge rules you liable for the offences you will then be sentenced to a fine of an amount of at least 10% greater than the amount of the fixed fine.

Bonne chance!



Are you seriously saying that I have to throw away the full fine before my challenge has been decided?
Call me cynical, but this little episode has changed my mind about the French authorities - and not in a good way.
My challenge was based on the fact, that I never received any original notification, because if I had, then I would have paid the original fine.
This to me smacks of corruption and is probably the kind of thing which has set off the "Gilets jaune" riots in France.


I have referred to links for the various sources of information about French motoring penalties.
The French introduced a penalty deposit scheme to deter the frivolous challenges they were receiving for motoring offences.

A Penalty Notice clearly indicates how to proceed to name another driver or challenge the offence and specifies the requirement to include a deposit equivalent to the penalty. Should the challenge be upheld the deposit is returned. If the challenge is refused by a magistrate the penalty may be increased by 10%. How can this legal procedure be corruption?

You did not receive the original notice but having received the follow-up increased penalty notice and have challenged this. You haven't yet received a reply to your challenge so await the result as it's probable that the penalty will revert to the €135 amende majoré.



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cp8759
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 21:01
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QUOTE (Juan Carr @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 17:46) *
Cornish has no official status anywhere but, since 2002, it has been recognised as a minority language under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. The Cornish Language Partnership promotes and develops the language in Cornwall.

Would that recognition be enough for you to insist that they issue your documentation in Cornish (where Google Translate most definitely won't help!)

The recognition of a language is irrelevant, the requirement is that the language used be a language which the accused person can understand. If a Thai person is arrested for murder in France, they're entitled to be told in Thai the exact details and nature of the wrong they are accused of, it would be hardly fair for the system to say "well Thai isn't a European language so we're going to hold the whole trial in French with no interpreter and if he can't understand a word of what's going on, tough sh1t".


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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baroudeur
post Sat, 21 Sep 2019 - 16:19
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 22:01) *
QUOTE (Juan Carr @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 17:46) *
Cornish has no official status anywhere but, since 2002, it has been recognised as a minority language under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. The Cornish Language Partnership promotes and develops the language in Cornwall.

Would that recognition be enough for you to insist that they issue your documentation in Cornish (where Google Translate most definitely won't help!)

The recognition of a language is irrelevant, the requirement is that the language used be a language which the accused person can understand. If a Thai person is arrested for murder in France, they're entitled to be told in Thai the exact details and nature of the wrong they are accused of, it would be hardly fair for the system to say "well Thai isn't a European language so we're going to hold the whole trial in French with no interpreter and if he can't understand a word of what's going on, tough sh1t".



The Cross Border Agreement requires a penalty notice to be issued in the language of the vehicle's registration document ergo for the UK in English or Welsh.
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cp8759
post Sat, 21 Sep 2019 - 19:19
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sat, 21 Sep 2019 - 17:19) *
The Cross Border Agreement requires a penalty notice to be issued in the language of the vehicle's registration document ergo for the UK in English or Welsh.

Article 6 ECHR requires that a notice bee sent in a language the accused can understand. It's a reasonable inference that a registered keeper would understand the language of the country where his vehicle is registered, but this is not irrebuttable.

For example if a Brit had a car registered in Spain, but didn't speak Spanish, and he got a fine from France, he'd be well within his rights to ask for a new notification to be given to him in English. If the French state were to simply refuse and insist on using Spanish or French, that would be a breach of that person's Article 6 rights. For reference:

3. Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and
cause of the accusation against him;


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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