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Wanted drivers details, careless driving
greasemonkey99
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 09:55
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Hi
Just received a 172 asking for the drivers details
with regard to a careless driving charge
it alledges another motorist witnessed careless driving
Unfortunatley i have no recollection of this mainly because i drive 3000km a week in a truck
the incident time and date location are over 8 miles away from my route on the day in question -
my Tacho puts me on Break 10 miles away - with a weigh bridge ticket to prove location - at the time of the incident
what are the chances this will be forgotten about ?
i sent the 172 back as it is required by law - but i kept the location difference and tacho time to myself
10 miles is up to 20 minutes with traffic and road junctions
cheers
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post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 09:55
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Jlc
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 10:00
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So you responded confirming you were at the given location at the time and date?

There's little chance it will be 'forgotten'.

In terms of the time, it's likely to have been reported by a 'member of the public' and the time may not be 100% accurate and 10/20 minutes isn't necessarily an issue as merely directory. Likewise, the weigh bridge etc. may not serve to assist and you definitely cannot hijack any prosecution.

Anyway, you'll have to wait for their next move which likely be a request for a conversation. You may wish to consider duty representation.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 10:00


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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greasemonkey99
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 11:14
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I have not said i was there there is no option on the form to say that
My concern is that if the accuser cannot be accurate with time or place how reliable is their evidence ?
Wrong time wrong place but yes i was driving that truck from 0430 until 1800
Please advise me how to adjust the 172 form
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The Rookie
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 11:18
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Not giving that imformation was a mistake, of course there was no option on the form as you were confirming driving that vehicle at that location and time.

Where you ever at that location, a minor time difference is not a get out of jail free card.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 11:18


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Jlc
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 11:25
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QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:14) *
I have not said i was there there is no option on the form to say that
My concern is that if the accuser cannot be accurate with time or place how reliable is their evidence ?
Wrong time wrong place but yes i was driving that truck from 0430 until 1800
Please advise me how to adjust the 172 form

It's too late now.

You'll have to wait and see what happens next.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:28
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QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:14) *
My concern is that if the accuser cannot be accurate with time or place how reliable is their evidence ?

I’m always a bit surprised at the number of people who think that a small detail that is a bit wrong somehow makes all the evidence suspect. Getting the time wrong by 10 minutes or so doesn’t mean they didn’t witness what they say they saw.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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greasemonkey99
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:33
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Okay
i have the 172 form still here not posted yet

nope i was no where near the reported incident - never used that section of road its 8 miles away from the closest part of the route taken on the day in question

how do i adjust the 172 to say i was not at the location because it does not specify this where you sign - it just says the location of the alledged incident

cheers

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:28) *
QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:14) *
My concern is that if the accuser cannot be accurate with time or place how reliable is their evidence ?

I’m always a bit surprised at the number of people who think that a small detail that is a bit wrong somehow makes all the evidence suspect. Getting the time wrong by 10 minutes or so doesn’t mean they didn’t witness what they say they saw.


so what you are saying is that a fully reliable witness in court can say - oh yes i saw this happen in Luton - but then change their evidence to actually it was in Milton Keynes -
sorry but i do not believe you even know what you are talking about
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southpaw82
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:38
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QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:33) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:28) *
QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:14) *
My concern is that if the accuser cannot be accurate with time or place how reliable is their evidence ?

I’m always a bit surprised at the number of people who think that a small detail that is a bit wrong somehow makes all the evidence suspect. Getting the time wrong by 10 minutes or so doesn’t mean they didn’t witness what they say they saw.


so what you are saying is that a fully reliable witness in court can say - oh yes i saw this happen in Luton - but then change their evidence to actually it was in Milton Keynes -
sorry but i do not believe you even know what you are talking about

Oh dear... you had best inform all my clients... and the Appointments Commission so I don’t make similar mistakes when assessing the evidence of witnesses when sitting in a tribunal. rolleyes.gif


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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peterguk
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:40
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QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:33) *
sorry but i do not believe you even know what you are talking about


You come here for advice. Then argue with one of the most experienced and qualified posters on the forum.

Why waste your time? rolleyes.gif

And ours.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:42


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greasemonkey99
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:52
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:38) *
QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:33) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:28) *
QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:14) *
My concern is that if the accuser cannot be accurate with time or place how reliable is their evidence ?

I’m always a bit surprised at the number of people who think that a small detail that is a bit wrong somehow makes all the evidence suspect. Getting the time wrong by 10 minutes or so doesn’t mean they didn’t witness what they say they saw.


so what you are saying is that a fully reliable witness in court can say - oh yes i saw this happen in Luton - but then change their evidence to actually it was in Milton Keynes -
sorry but i do not believe you even know what you are talking about

Oh dear... you had best inform all my clients... and the Appointments Commission so I don’t make similar mistakes when assessing the evidence of witnesses when sitting in a tribunal. rolleyes.gif


So i had just better just say i was there even though i wasn't ?
FFS - really where is common sense gone - how can you accept a statement from a witness - which they sign to say is a true statement of facts - they do don't they ? or are they allowed to say - well it might have been - or was i wrong about the place - maybe i was - but i still say it happen - but it may not have been there - or at that time - or maybe it was i really cannot remember - sorry
no way could this be allowed to happen in a court of law - if it does it needs sorting
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southpaw82
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:54
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QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:52) *
So i had just better just say i was there even though i wasn't ?

I don’t believe I said that or anything like it. What I said was that a small error does not automatically, or even often, invalidate the rest of the evidence given by the witness.


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greasemonkey99
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:55
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:40) *
QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:33) *
sorry but i do not believe you even know what you are talking about


You come here for advice. Then argue with one of the most experienced and qualified posters on the forum.

Why waste your time? rolleyes.gif

And ours.

So things are taken as gospel - no one is allowed to say ' hold on thats not right !'
i will argue with anyone if i feel i am being stitched up by some mate of a copper who wants to flex his relationship with my license
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peterguk
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:56
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QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:52) *
So i had just better just say i was there even though i wasn't ?


Absolutely not. If you weren't there, tell them you weren't there. Maybe the witness made it all up.


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greasemonkey99
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:57
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So lets start over
i have been accused by a member of the public of driving without due care -
at a place i was not at
at a time i could not have been there

does this not smell even a bit fishy to anyone ?
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southpaw82
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:05
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QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:57) *
So lets start over
i have been accused by a member of the public of driving without due care -
at a place i was not at
at a time i could not have been there

does this not smell even a bit fishy to anyone ?

It could be entirely made up as a joke or by some mentally disturbed person.

It could be made up by someone trying to stitch you up.

It could be that the witness is mistaken about your vehicle being involved.

It could be that the witness is mistaken as to the time but is correct that it was your vehicle that was involved.

Some of those possibilities are more likely than the others.

Regardless of how hard done by you feel you need to keep a lid on it if you want to carry on posting here. Nobody here reported you to the police.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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greasemonkey99
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:08
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:56) *
QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:52) *
So i had just better just say i was there even though i wasn't ?


Absolutely not. If you weren't there, tell them you weren't there. Maybe the witness made it all up.


too many times i get accused by others road users of taking too much room whilst i use a roundabout - or straddling the white lines at a junction to stop cars or vans coming up my left or right as i require the room
i have no doubt this is one of those times when a motorist feels agrieved by me taking up alot of room - however my original question has still to answered
what to write on the 172 to let them know yes i was the driver because i was
without admitting to being somewhere i was not ?

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 16:05) *
QUOTE (greasemonkey99 @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:57) *
So lets start over
i have been accused by a member of the public of driving without due care -
at a place i was not at
at a time i could not have been there

does this not smell even a bit fishy to anyone ?

It could be entirely made up as a joke or by some mentally disturbed person.

It could be made up by someone trying to stitch you up.

It could be that the witness is mistaken about your vehicle being involved.

It could be that the witness is mistaken as to the time but is correct that it was your vehicle that was involved.

Some of those possibilities are more likely than the others.

Regardless of how hard done by you feel you need to keep a lid on it if you want to carry on posting here. Nobody here reported you to the police.

This is understood - i realise no one on here reported me - so how or what do i write on the 172 ? or do i just send it back and let them deciede - not much choice i suppose
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southpaw82
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:18
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You could reply by letter, including all of the information required by the form. In this letter you could set out that you were the driver at the time mentioned in the s 172 notice but you and your vehicle were not at the location mentioned. this will alert the police at an early stage to the disputed facts and what they do with that is up to them - go back to the witness to clarify, proceed as it may just be a minor error, or bin the matter.

Or, you could just name yourself in response the the s 172 and if the police take it further put forward the location discrepancy at that stage.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:24
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You do not have to use their form. A signed letter will do as long as it provides details.

You can confirm you were driving the vehicle but at the material time you were at a weigh bridge. You also seem to be saying you never went to the given location?

There may be video evidence of course.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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greasemonkey99
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:39
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 16:24) *
You do not have to use their form. A signed letter will do as long as it provides details.

You can confirm you were driving the vehicle but at the material time you were at a weigh bridge. You also seem to be saying you never went to the given location?

There may be video evidence of course.


And i hope there is video because it will show the true location and TBH if i have driven dangerous - but one persons dangerous might not actually be dangerous to another if they are unaware of other circumstances - ie needed more room at junctions for the trailer etc
i'll send it back as it is and see what plod want - might want a chat before anything else so i will have a chance to raise my location and time concerns - also might find out what the hell its all about too
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Jlc
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:42
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A phone call is worth a try but they may not be too talkative at this stage which is to nominate driver.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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