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[NIP Wizard] purple_elk
purple_elk
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 09:59
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2018
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A541 Mold Road, Wrexham
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 11
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was not aware that I had been flashed. The speed recorded was 35mph. I am keen to look at the calibration certificate for the camera as the speed recorded is at the lowest limit of what is enforceable (to the best of my knowledge), but the NIP does not specify the camera ID.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Wales

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 09:59:26 +0000
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post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 09:59
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peterguk
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 10:02
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A SAC is going to be the best way out assuming you haven't done one in last three years.

You are very unlikely to see the calibration certificate before opting for court which would mean declining the offer of a SAC. Court will be 3 points, and if you're on 11, a totting ban of 6 months.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 10:04


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BaggieBoy
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 10:32
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No fixed camera at that location, was probably a van.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 10:58
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QUOTE (purple_elk @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 10:59) *
I am keen to look at the calibration certificate for the camera as the speed recorded is at the lowest limit of what is enforceable (to the best of my knowledge),

No, the speed is at the lower limit of what is enforced (a police decision), lower speeds are still enforceable (a courts decision).


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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NewJudge
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 11:02
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QUOTE (purple_elk @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 10:59) *
I am keen to look at the calibration certificate for the camera as the speed recorded is at the lowest limit of what is enforceable

No it isn't. It's at the lowest level where enforcement usually takes place. You can be prosecuted for exceeding the speed limit by one mile per hour (and you may have seen in the press that some senior police officers are pressing for just that to become policy). At present enforcement normally begins at (Limit + 10% +2mph).
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purple_elk
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 13:17
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Hi,
Sadly I am not eligible for a SAC at this time. Looks like the only thing I can do is make an exceptional hardship application
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The Rookie
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 13:25
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So you’ve previously done a SAC with an offence date in the last three years and likewise with your other points?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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purple_elk
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 13:44
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I have done an SAC in the last three years. I have also done another course for not stopping at a red light. I am a fairly new driver and I am clearly struggling to follow the rules. I have also completed an advanced driving course. I am getting better, I just need to be aware of it all the time, just one slip is all it takes. I really hope I get one final chance, because being off the road for 6 months will be a bit of a disaster for me as my work depends on my being able to drive
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NewJudge
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 14:39
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QUOTE (purple_elk @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 14:44) *
I have done an SAC in the last three years.

Was the offence date for which that course was offered more than three years prior to this latest one? It is the offence dates that are used for the calculation, not the date you did the course.
QUOTE (purple_elk @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 14:44) *
...because being off the road for 6 months will be a bit of a disaster for me as my work depends on my being able to drive

How much of a disaster? Losing your job by itself is not usually classed as "Exceptional" hardship (simply because it is by no means exceptional - anybody needing to drive for their work would be in the same position). What effect would losing your licence and hence your job have on you and (particularly) others? Do you have anybody dependent on you being able to drive or dependent on your income? If you post your proposed EH argument on here you will get a view on the likelihood of its success.
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purple_elk
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 15:03
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Wow you might be onto something there, the SAC date was 30/Nov/2015 so the offense was definitely well before August! But I thought if you have been convicted of speeding within the last three years, that would also disqualify you? Also, any idea how I can find out the exact date of the speeding offense which led to my SAC?
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NewJudge
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 15:17
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QUOTE (purple_elk @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 16:03) *
But I thought if you have been convicted of speeding within the last three years, that would also disqualify you?

No it does not. The only stipulation is that you should not have taken a course in the previous three years (as I said, with the offence dates being used to calculate the period).
QUOTE (purple_elk @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 16:03) *
Also, any idea how I can find out the exact date of the speeding offense which led to my SAC?

Dunno. I believe your DVLA driving record will only show your conviction dates. As I understand it, if you are eligible, a course should be automatically offered. The problem you might have if that if a course is not offered and you believe that it should have been you need the earlier offence date to query the matter.

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Ocelot
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 16:35
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Maybe check your post, or ask the constabulary involved when the offence was?
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Logician
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 20:38
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QUOTE (purple_elk @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 16:03) *
Wow you might be onto something there, the SAC date was 30/Nov/2015 so the offense was definitely well before August! Also, any idea how I can find out the exact date of the speeding offense which led to my SAC?


I do not think that necessarily means the offence was before August, but if you are eligible for a course on the basis of three years between offences, the offer should come through as normal. My ex had just that situation, the time was quite tight but she was eligible and the course was offered.



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purple_elk
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 18:34
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Alas, it WAS less than three years.
Re. exceptional hardship: my father's cognitive function has been deteriorating for several years and he is showing signs of dementia. As of yet he doesn't have a diagnosis, but he has been prescribed medication for alzheimer's and has been told by his GP to stop driving (which he has done). My mum still drives but will not drive on motorways or at night, so there are times when he is dependent on me to get around. I have also supported them both by driving, taking them for walks and to appointments during the day and doing odd jobs around the home.
Do people feel that this could form the basis for a strong case?

In a previous trial, which in the end did not turn into an exceptional hardship hearing, my solicitor wanted to speak about community drumming events for at risk groups which I organise. I bring a quantity of hand drums and percussion instruments to a venue and facilitate a drumming group with the help of volunteers. What are people's thought's on this as an argument?

Thanks for all your help.

Elk
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Logician
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 22:25
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As your mother can drive during the day, the situation with your parents does not sound a strong case at all. The drumming group might offer more scope, but you would have to explain much more and say why no one else can transport the kit, why it cannot be left at the venue, what the members are at risk from, what the community is that you mention and so on.


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Dwaynedouglas
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 06:57
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QUOTE (purple_elk @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 10:59) *
The speed recorded was 35mph. I am keen to look at the calibration certificate for the camera as the speed recorded is at the lowest limit of what is enforceable


As a point of interest - even if the speed was somehow identified as 34, so OP was exceeding the speed limit (albeit by less than previously identified), am I right in thinking that it's likely that it would still be prosecuted?

My logic is: as it has got to the point of pleading not guilty, the onus would be on OP to rebut the allegation that they were exceeding the prevailing speed limit (30mph), rather than 'I was breaking the law, but not by as much as you said'.


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I'm not a lawyer or legally trained, my opinion is based on my experience - follow at your own risk.
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Jlc
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 08:44
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The alleged offence is exceeding the prescribed limit. The excess decides the sentencing, if proven.

The guideline for 34 is the same as 35.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 08:46
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QUOTE (Dwaynedouglas @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 07:57) *
My logic is: as it has got to the point of pleading not guilty, the onus would be on OP to rebut the allegation that they were exceeding the prevailing speed limit (30mph), rather than 'I was breaking the law, but not by as much as you said'.

The accused doesn’t have to rebut anything.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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NewJudge
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 18:05
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 09:46) *
The accused doesn’t have to rebut anything.

Indeed not. But he would surely have to give the court a reason why they should not rely on an approved device working correctly, wouldn't he? The lack of a current calibration certificate would not necessarily provide that.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 18:32
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 19:05) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 09:46) *
The accused doesn’t have to rebut anything.

Indeed not. But he would surely have to give the court a reason why they should not rely on an approved device working correctly, wouldn't he? The lack of a current calibration certificate would not necessarily provide that.

Correct.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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