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CCTV, Enforcement by councils.
Neil B
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 21:40
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Dunno how this has attracted my attention.

Looking at the Pickles 2015 amendment. Can councils still use CCTV to enforce off-street?

The amendment doesn't seem to say it can't, other than it only refers to Reg 9 for off-street, splitting that
from 9A on-street.


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post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 21:40
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DancingDad
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 23:54
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Don't think so mate.
Off street the only option is for a CEO to serve a Reg 9 PCN.
On Street a CEO can serve a 9A or within limited circumstances a Reg 10 (CCTV) can be served.
Reg 10 also only allows CCTV based to be served for 9A, specifically the circumstances within 9A(6)....bus lanes etc.... ie on street.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 00:03
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 23:54) *
Don't think so mate.
Off street the only option is for a CEO to serve a Reg 9 PCN.
On Street a CEO can serve a 9A or within limited circumstances a Reg 10 (CCTV) can be served.
Reg 10 also only allows CCTV based to be served for 9A, specifically the circumstances within 9A(6)....bus lanes etc.... ie on street.

Just had a look at the amendments and they say where te regs say reg 9 insert or 9A so i don't think so


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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 15:43
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The consolidated regs (which I admit I consolidated myself, but I did check them about a million times before publishing) say:

10.—(1) Subject to paragraph (1A) an enforcement authority may serve a
penalty charge notice by post where

(a) on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, the authority
has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a
vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area;

(b) a civil enforcement officer attempted to serve a penalty charge notice in
accordance with regulation 9 or 9A but was prevented from doing so by
some person; or

(с) a civil enforcement officer had begun to prepare a penalty charge
notice for service in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A, but the vehicle
concerned was driven away from the place in which it was stationary
before the civil enforcement officer had finished preparing the penalty
charge notice or had served it in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A

...
(1A) Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in relation to a penalty charge payable in
respect of a parking contravention on a road in a civil enforcement area except
in the circumstances specified in regulation 9A(6)

(1A) only limits the use of CCTV on a road, so in theory a reg 10 PCN can be served for contraventions that occur in a car park.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 16:08
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 15:43) *
The consolidated regs (which I admit I consolidated myself, but I did check them about a million times before publishing) say:

10.—(1) Subject to paragraph (1A) an enforcement authority may serve a
penalty charge notice by post where

(a) on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, the authority
has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a
vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area;

(b) a civil enforcement officer attempted to serve a penalty charge notice in
accordance with regulation 9 or 9A but was prevented from doing so by
some person; or

(с) a civil enforcement officer had begun to prepare a penalty charge
notice for service in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A, but the vehicle
concerned was driven away from the place in which it was stationary
before the civil enforcement officer had finished preparing the penalty
charge notice or had served it in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A

...
(1A) Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in relation to a penalty charge payable in
respect of a parking contravention on a road in a civil enforcement area except
in the circumstances specified in regulation 9A(6)

(1A) only limits the use of CCTV on a road, so in theory a reg 10 PCN can be served for contraventions that occur in a car park.



I read it differently. That the use of CCTV can only be on a road in the limited exemptions


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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 16:41
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 16:08) *
I read it differently. That the use of CCTV can only be on a road in the limited exemptions

That's what I said. But a car park is not a road.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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phantomcrusader
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 16:51
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I agree with cp875.

Reg 10 regulates postal PCN's. It says about approved devices (CCTV)

QUOTE
1(a) Subject to paragraph (1A) an enforcement authority may serve a penalty charge notice by post where— 1(a)on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, the authority has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area;


Paragraph 1A says
QUOTE
(1A)Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in relation to a penalty charge payable in respect of a parking contravention on a road in a civil enforcement area except in the circumstances specified in regulation 9A(6)


Reg 10 is saying its OK to serve CCTV PCN's but not in relation to parking contraventions that occur on a road unless the vehicle is stationary in a bus lane, bus stop clearway, a school entrance marking & a red route.

There is no prohibition on serving off road CCTV PCN's. The guidance on not serving postal PCN's if a CEO can safely serve one may apply though.

This post has been edited by phantomcrusader: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 16:58
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Wretched Rectum
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 17:28
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Interesting that a parking postal pcn can be issued to vehicles that are stationary in a bus lane. Being stationary in a bus lane is not a parking contravention so I presume it means a postal pcn can be served if a vehicle is parked on yellow lines within a bus lane or parked adjacent to a dropped footway in a bus lane or stopped on pedestrian crossing zig zags in a bus lane.

This post has been edited by Wretched Rectum: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 17:29
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 18:01
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 23:54) *
Don't think so mate.
Off street the only option is for a CEO to serve a Reg 9 PCN.
On Street a CEO can serve a 9A or within limited circumstances a Reg 10 (CCTV) can be served.
Reg 10 also only allows CCTV based to be served for 9A, specifically the circumstances within 9A(6)....bus lanes etc.... ie on street.

That's how I read it too.

As there is no option for a Reg 10 off-street there is no need for the amendment to mention it.



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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phantomcrusader
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 18:35
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Reg 9 heading is: Penalty charge notices for off-road contraventions – service by a civil enforcement officer

Reg 9A heading is: Penalty charge notices for contraventions on a road – service by a civil enforcement officer

Reg 10 heading is: Penalty charge notices — service by post

Regs 9 & 9A concern service by a CEO and reg 10 concerns serving postal PCN’s.

I can see that reg 10 restricts the circumstances when an on road CCTV based PCN can be served but I cannot see any similar restriction on serving an off road CCTV based PCN.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 13:22
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For gawd's sake, don't tell councils.......
Try as I might, I cannot fault CP's analysis.
But being as I have always taken as fact that CCTV cannot be used in council car parks for enforcement and have never seen any PCNs relying on them, have to wonder what I am missing?
Even the DoT on their statutory guidance only refer to on street activities....
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...reet-activities

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 23:19
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Neil B
post Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 20:55
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I'm at least relieved it wasn't such a daft question.

I certainly think there's some vagueness in the combined Regs.



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 21:01
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Not a daft question Neil. That's why Councils with ANPR controls want to take car parks out of civil enforcement.

Mick
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cp8759
post Yesterday, 10:39
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 21:01) *
Not a daft question Neil. That's why Councils with ANPR controls want to take car parks out of civil enforcement.

I'm not so sure about that. In Canterbury they've got ANPR car parks that require no enforcement at all, as the barrier doesn't let you out unless the correct fee for the parking session has been paid. The number of PCNs issued in those car parks is now zero. It also means you can make an account and just drive in and out and they debit your account for the correct amount, no faffing about with coins or ringo or anything else.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 13:22) *
But being as I have always taken as fact that CCTV cannot be used in council car parks for enforcement and have never seen any PCNs relying on them, have to wonder what I am missing?

I suspect it's a big investment to set up a CCTV system, tens of thousands at least, while a CEO only costs £9 an hour and if they issue one or two PCNs an hour, they're paying for themselves. Also if you want to catch anything more than people who evade payment (for example parking in restricted areas, parking in a BB bay without a BB) you would need some pretty high definition cameras plus a human operator, so you'd still have the wage bill for no real benefit.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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