CCTV, Enforcement by councils. |
CCTV, Enforcement by councils. |
Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 21:40
Post
#1
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 29,269 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Dunno how this has attracted my attention.
Looking at the Pickles 2015 amendment. Can councils still use CCTV to enforce off-street? The amendment doesn't seem to say it can't, other than it only refers to Reg 9 for off-street, splitting that from 9A on-street. -------------------- |
|
|
Advertisement |
Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 21:40
Post
#
|
Advertise here! |
|
|
|
Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 23:54
Post
#2
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Don't think so mate.
Off street the only option is for a CEO to serve a Reg 9 PCN. On Street a CEO can serve a 9A or within limited circumstances a Reg 10 (CCTV) can be served. Reg 10 also only allows CCTV based to be served for 9A, specifically the circumstances within 9A(6)....bus lanes etc.... ie on street. |
|
|
Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 00:03
Post
#3
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Don't think so mate. Off street the only option is for a CEO to serve a Reg 9 PCN. On Street a CEO can serve a 9A or within limited circumstances a Reg 10 (CCTV) can be served. Reg 10 also only allows CCTV based to be served for 9A, specifically the circumstances within 9A(6)....bus lanes etc.... ie on street. Just had a look at the amendments and they say where te regs say reg 9 insert or 9A so i don't think so -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 15:43
Post
#4
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The consolidated regs (which I admit I consolidated myself, but I did check them about a million times before publishing) say:
10.—(1) Subject to paragraph (1A) an enforcement authority may serve a penalty charge notice by post where (a) on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, the authority has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area; (b) a civil enforcement officer attempted to serve a penalty charge notice in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A but was prevented from doing so by some person; or (с) a civil enforcement officer had begun to prepare a penalty charge notice for service in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A, but the vehicle concerned was driven away from the place in which it was stationary before the civil enforcement officer had finished preparing the penalty charge notice or had served it in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A ... (1A) Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in relation to a penalty charge payable in respect of a parking contravention on a road in a civil enforcement area except in the circumstances specified in regulation 9A(6) (1A) only limits the use of CCTV on a road, so in theory a reg 10 PCN can be served for contraventions that occur in a car park. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 16:08
Post
#5
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
The consolidated regs (which I admit I consolidated myself, but I did check them about a million times before publishing) say: 10.—(1) Subject to paragraph (1A) an enforcement authority may serve a penalty charge notice by post where (a) on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, the authority has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area; (b) a civil enforcement officer attempted to serve a penalty charge notice in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A but was prevented from doing so by some person; or (с) a civil enforcement officer had begun to prepare a penalty charge notice for service in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A, but the vehicle concerned was driven away from the place in which it was stationary before the civil enforcement officer had finished preparing the penalty charge notice or had served it in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A ... (1A) Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in relation to a penalty charge payable in respect of a parking contravention on a road in a civil enforcement area except in the circumstances specified in regulation 9A(6) (1A) only limits the use of CCTV on a road, so in theory a reg 10 PCN can be served for contraventions that occur in a car park. I read it differently. That the use of CCTV can only be on a road in the limited exemptions -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 16:41
Post
#6
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I read it differently. That the use of CCTV can only be on a road in the limited exemptions That's what I said. But a car park is not a road. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 16:51
Post
#7
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 516 Joined: 27 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,840 |
I agree with cp875.
Reg 10 regulates postal PCN's. It says about approved devices (CCTV) QUOTE 1(a) Subject to paragraph (1A) an enforcement authority may serve a penalty charge notice by post where— 1(a)on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, the authority has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area; Paragraph 1A says QUOTE (1A)Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in relation to a penalty charge payable in respect of a parking contravention on a road in a civil enforcement area except in the circumstances specified in regulation 9A(6) Reg 10 is saying its OK to serve CCTV PCN's but not in relation to parking contraventions that occur on a road unless the vehicle is stationary in a bus lane, bus stop clearway, a school entrance marking & a red route. There is no prohibition on serving off road CCTV PCN's. The guidance on not serving postal PCN's if a CEO can safely serve one may apply though. This post has been edited by phantomcrusader: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 16:58 |
|
|
Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 17:28
Post
#8
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 195 Joined: 4 Mar 2014 Member No.: 69,189 |
Interesting that a parking postal pcn can be issued to vehicles that are stationary in a bus lane. Being stationary in a bus lane is not a parking contravention so I presume it means a postal pcn can be served if a vehicle is parked on yellow lines within a bus lane or parked adjacent to a dropped footway in a bus lane or stopped on pedestrian crossing zig zags in a bus lane.
This post has been edited by Wretched Rectum: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 17:29 |
|
|
Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 18:01
Post
#9
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 29,269 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Don't think so mate. Off street the only option is for a CEO to serve a Reg 9 PCN. On Street a CEO can serve a 9A or within limited circumstances a Reg 10 (CCTV) can be served. Reg 10 also only allows CCTV based to be served for 9A, specifically the circumstances within 9A(6)....bus lanes etc.... ie on street. That's how I read it too. As there is no option for a Reg 10 off-street there is no need for the amendment to mention it. -------------------- |
|
|
Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 18:35
Post
#10
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 516 Joined: 27 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,840 |
Reg 9 heading is: Penalty charge notices for off-road contraventions – service by a civil enforcement officer
Reg 9A heading is: Penalty charge notices for contraventions on a road – service by a civil enforcement officer Reg 10 heading is: Penalty charge notices — service by post Regs 9 & 9A concern service by a CEO and reg 10 concerns serving postal PCN’s. I can see that reg 10 restricts the circumstances when an on road CCTV based PCN can be served but I cannot see any similar restriction on serving an off road CCTV based PCN. |
|
|
Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 13:22
Post
#11
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
For gawd's sake, don't tell councils.......
Try as I might, I cannot fault CP's analysis. But being as I have always taken as fact that CCTV cannot be used in council car parks for enforcement and have never seen any PCNs relying on them, have to wonder what I am missing? Even the DoT on their statutory guidance only refer to on street activities.... https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...reet-activities This post has been edited by DancingDad: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 23:19 |
|
|
Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 20:55
Post
#12
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 29,269 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
I'm at least relieved it wasn't such a daft question.
I certainly think there's some vagueness in the combined Regs. -------------------- |
|
|
Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 21:01
Post
#13
|
|
Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Not a daft question Neil. That's why Councils with ANPR controls want to take car parks out of civil enforcement.
Mick |
|
|
Fri, 15 Jan 2021 - 10:39
Post
#14
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Not a daft question Neil. That's why Councils with ANPR controls want to take car parks out of civil enforcement. I'm not so sure about that. In Canterbury they've got ANPR car parks that require no enforcement at all, as the barrier doesn't let you out unless the correct fee for the parking session has been paid. The number of PCNs issued in those car parks is now zero. It also means you can make an account and just drive in and out and they debit your account for the correct amount, no faffing about with coins or ringo or anything else. But being as I have always taken as fact that CCTV cannot be used in council car parks for enforcement and have never seen any PCNs relying on them, have to wonder what I am missing? I suspect it's a big investment to set up a CCTV system, tens of thousands at least, while a CEO only costs £9 an hour and if they issue one or two PCNs an hour, they're paying for themselves. Also if you want to catch anything more than people who evade payment (for example parking in restricted areas, parking in a BB bay without a BB) you would need some pretty high definition cameras plus a human operator, so you'd still have the wage bill for no real benefit. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Mon, 18 Jan 2021 - 12:58
Post
#15
|
|
Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
|
|
|
Mon, 18 Jan 2021 - 14:25
Post
#16
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 557 Joined: 30 Oct 2020 From: West Mids Member No.: 110,385 |
I'd note that Tamworth (which I think is under staffs council) are using ANPR to monitor a number of their off street car parks
I believe that PCNs are still being issued by CEOs by hand at the moment but it does make you wander if the system flags up when cars are near the expiry time to their handheld pda's? |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 12:23 |