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PCN code 622 wrong street name on PCN
fstbol
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:21
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Hi,

I was issued PCN code 622 Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath. The location on PCN states Shepherds Hill, Harold Wood.
I was actually parked on narrow lane Ivy Lodge Lane, where all cars were parked this way.
Is there any grounds of appeal based on wrong location?

Below link is where I have parked
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5908528,0.2...3312!8i6656

Attached PCN and council photos

This post has been edited by fstbol: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:38
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post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:21
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:36
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Is that road adopted by the Council? It looks like a cart track.


Probably a number of issues to kick around before you can get proper advice but wrong location is usually a winner.


If residents have been parking this way for some time they have established a legitimate expectancy that they could continue to do so. If however the Council have issued warnings or started footway enforcement some time ago then that ground could fall.


So, do you know the history of this lane or could one of the residents have reported your parking to the Council?


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:36
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fstbol
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:54
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Hi Mick,

I don't think someone has reported it but I can't be sure it was early after 9am in the morning.
There were about 5 cars fined parked further down this lane at the same time.
Ticket inspector was there and said we should have parked on the road.
This Lane is narrow and I believe locals park this way to not obstruct the road unfortunately I don't know history of this lane.

Here is link to local council map is there if that helps

https://www.haveringtraffweb.co.uk/main.html
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Speedy2007
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:03
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Some years ago, when I serviced and supplied the computers to the vets, that road was, I believe, owned by what was then Gerry Cashins practice. Sorry to be vague but I retired and moved to the Midlands several years ago. There is also a farm on the site which rents out buildings to small companies. The road only provided access to those two premises so I can't see it being adopted.
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nextdoor
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:14
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You were clearly parked in Ivy Lodge Lane, not Shepherds Hill as alleged on the pcn. Wrong location is fatal. Everything else, legitimate expectation, pavement parking etc is superfluous
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hcandersen
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:23
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OP, I suggest you look at the house numbers.

GSV makes it clear that there is a continuous line of properties which follow a curve and which front onto the road where you were.

If the numbers are continuous from the main carriageway into the adjacent road then this would suggest they're on record as being in Shepherd's Hill.

Postcode finder - https://www.royalmail.com/find-a-postcode - suggests that Ivy Lodge Lane is to your right and not the one on which you were parked.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:28
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Its a national cycle route so any argument about access is mute. Not the correct location specified ? Worth a challenge but you must get the highway terrier

Vague location? If you where driving my car and parked it there, and did not tell me about a PCN when i get the NTO and try to look for the location. I would not be able to find it, so that is an option


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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:38
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Nothing on https://www.haveringtraffweb.co.uk/main.html for Ivy Lodge Road so I don't think its Council but private.

It's not a public right of way but a permissive path for access, cycles and horses. I don't think a CEO had any right to be in that lane. By the same token neither did the OP unless he had access rights.


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:58
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fstbol
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 13:15
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 13:28) *
Not the correct location specified ? Worth a challenge but you must get the highway terrier


This was what I was hoping I could challenge, but not sure where to find highway terrier is this available online?


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cp8759
post Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 20:08
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QUOTE (fstbol @ Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 14:15) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 13:28) *
Not the correct location specified ? Worth a challenge but you must get the highway terrier


This was what I was hoping I could challenge, but not sure where to find highway terrier is this available online?

Most councils have something called a "list of streets" which is published online. However the issue is not whether the council is responsible for maintaining the road, the issue is whether the public have a right to pass and re-pass at will and without hindrance. If, as PMB says, there is a national cycle path along this road, then the fact that it is private property is irrelevant and the council has jurisdiction to enforce the footway parking ban.


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fstbol
post Wed, 23 Sep 2020 - 13:29
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[/quote]
Most councils have something called a "list of streets" which is published online. However the issue is not whether the council is responsible for maintaining the road, the issue is whether the public have a right to pass and re-pass at will and without hindrance. If, as PMB says, there is a national cycle path along this road, then the fact that it is private property is irrelevant and the council has jurisdiction to enforce the footway parking ban.
[/quote]

I have checked and this lane is not on the council "list of streets" It also looks there is national cycle path along this road as there are signs looking at google maps.


[/quote]
OP, I suggest you look at the house numbers.

GSV makes it clear that there is a continuous line of properties which follow a curve and which front onto the road where you were.

If the numbers are continuous from the main carriageway into the adjacent road then this would suggest they're on record as being in Shepherd's Hill.
[/quote]

Also checked above and it seems this could be the case.

Given all this I don't think there are chances of successful appeal based on incorrect location or any other grounds?

Thanks
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disgrunt
post Wed, 23 Sep 2020 - 13:43
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Both the havering map and my os map app show the op on ivy lodge lane.
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cp8759
post Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 13:44
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Indeed the Ordnance Survey is normally accepted as conclusive evidence by courts and tribunals, and shows the OP was not parked at the location stated on the PCN:



It follows that the contravention alleged did not occur.

Draft representation:

----------------

Dear London Borough of Havering,

PCN XXXXXX alleged that my vehicle was parked with two wheels on the footway on Shepherds Hill, however my vehicle was in fact parked on Ivy Lodge Lane, and the CEO's photos will confirm this. As the vehicle was not parked on Shepherds Hill at all, the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.


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fstbol
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 10:31
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Informal challenge sent to council, will updated once I hear back from them.

Thank you all for helping here.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 22:21
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And the postal addresses or have you just decided to ignore this aspect...as you can see, why should 157 Shepherd's Hill suddenly after 4 contiguous properties become 165 Ivy Lodge?

Don't just ignore matters that don't suit your purpose, it can often be one's undoing.

Check the postcodes, or not if you cannot be bothered.
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disgrunt
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 23:12
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The postcode is the same for the whole area, including ivy lodge farm. Postal addresses and actual locations are not always one and the same. Often little closes or small roads are overlooked for convenience when it comes to postal addresses. The same when it comes to the county in postal addresses, growing up my address always said Norfolk, but I lived over the border in Suffolk.

Whilst the council might not want to cancel the PCN, their own map lists where the op was parked as ivy lodge lane

This post has been edited by disgrunt: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 23:14
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cp8759
post Sat, 26 Sep 2020 - 22:25
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 23:21) *
And the postal addresses or have you just decided to ignore this aspect..

Who cares about the postal address? The Ordnance Survey is considered authoritative by the courts in the UK, it will take a lot more than a discrepancy on the PAF to persuade a judicial office holder that the Ordnance Survey is wrong.


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fstbol
post Tue, 13 Oct 2020 - 12:25
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Hi

Just quick update got reply form council PCN cancelled.
Thanks for help with this one.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Oct 2020 - 12:28
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Can you post the letter. why they cancel could help others


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fstbol
post Tue, 13 Oct 2020 - 13:14
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 13 Oct 2020 - 13:28) *
Can you post the letter. why they cancel could help others


Just standard "I am pleased to inform you that upon considering your challenge and your comments, I have decided to cancel this PCN on this occasion"

No specific reason given in the letter.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 14:44) *
Dear London Borough of Havering,

PCN XXXXXX alleged that my vehicle was parked with two wheels on the footway on Shepherds Hill, however my vehicle was in fact parked on Ivy Lodge Lane, and the CEO's photos will confirm this. As the vehicle was not parked on Shepherds Hill at all, the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.


Challenge was as above I have added both Havering and Ordnance Survey maps to it.
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