PCN code 622 wrong street name on PCN |
PCN code 622 wrong street name on PCN |
Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:21
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 10 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,823 |
Hi,
I was issued PCN code 622 Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath. The location on PCN states Shepherds Hill, Harold Wood. I was actually parked on narrow lane Ivy Lodge Lane, where all cars were parked this way. Is there any grounds of appeal based on wrong location? Below link is where I have parked https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5908528,0.2...3312!8i6656 Attached PCN and council photos This post has been edited by fstbol: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:38 |
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Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:21
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Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:36
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#2
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Is that road adopted by the Council? It looks like a cart track.
Probably a number of issues to kick around before you can get proper advice but wrong location is usually a winner. If residents have been parking this way for some time they have established a legitimate expectancy that they could continue to do so. If however the Council have issued warnings or started footway enforcement some time ago then that ground could fall. So, do you know the history of this lane or could one of the residents have reported your parking to the Council? Mick This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:36 |
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Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 11:54
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 10 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,823 |
Hi Mick,
I don't think someone has reported it but I can't be sure it was early after 9am in the morning. There were about 5 cars fined parked further down this lane at the same time. Ticket inspector was there and said we should have parked on the road. This Lane is narrow and I believe locals park this way to not obstruct the road unfortunately I don't know history of this lane. Here is link to local council map is there if that helps https://www.haveringtraffweb.co.uk/main.html |
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Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:03
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 4 Apr 2007 Member No.: 11,453 |
Some years ago, when I serviced and supplied the computers to the vets, that road was, I believe, owned by what was then Gerry Cashins practice. Sorry to be vague but I retired and moved to the Midlands several years ago. There is also a farm on the site which rents out buildings to small companies. The road only provided access to those two premises so I can't see it being adopted.
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Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:14
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 529 Joined: 20 Jan 2017 Member No.: 89,788 |
You were clearly parked in Ivy Lodge Lane, not Shepherds Hill as alleged on the pcn. Wrong location is fatal. Everything else, legitimate expectation, pavement parking etc is superfluous
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Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:23
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
OP, I suggest you look at the house numbers. GSV makes it clear that there is a continuous line of properties which follow a curve and which front onto the road where you were. If the numbers are continuous from the main carriageway into the adjacent road then this would suggest they're on record as being in Shepherd's Hill. Postcode finder - https://www.royalmail.com/find-a-postcode - suggests that Ivy Lodge Lane is to your right and not the one on which you were parked. |
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Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:28
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Its a national cycle route so any argument about access is mute. Not the correct location specified ? Worth a challenge but you must get the highway terrier
Vague location? If you where driving my car and parked it there, and did not tell me about a PCN when i get the NTO and try to look for the location. I would not be able to find it, so that is an option -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:38
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#8
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Nothing on https://www.haveringtraffweb.co.uk/main.html for Ivy Lodge Road so I don't think its Council but private.
It's not a public right of way but a permissive path for access, cycles and horses. I don't think a CEO had any right to be in that lane. By the same token neither did the OP unless he had access rights. Mick This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 12:58 |
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Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 13:15
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 10 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,823 |
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Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 20:08
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Not the correct location specified ? Worth a challenge but you must get the highway terrier This was what I was hoping I could challenge, but not sure where to find highway terrier is this available online? Most councils have something called a "list of streets" which is published online. However the issue is not whether the council is responsible for maintaining the road, the issue is whether the public have a right to pass and re-pass at will and without hindrance. If, as PMB says, there is a national cycle path along this road, then the fact that it is private property is irrelevant and the council has jurisdiction to enforce the footway parking ban. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 23 Sep 2020 - 13:29
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 10 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,823 |
[/quote]
Most councils have something called a "list of streets" which is published online. However the issue is not whether the council is responsible for maintaining the road, the issue is whether the public have a right to pass and re-pass at will and without hindrance. If, as PMB says, there is a national cycle path along this road, then the fact that it is private property is irrelevant and the council has jurisdiction to enforce the footway parking ban. [/quote] I have checked and this lane is not on the council "list of streets" It also looks there is national cycle path along this road as there are signs looking at google maps. [/quote] OP, I suggest you look at the house numbers. GSV makes it clear that there is a continuous line of properties which follow a curve and which front onto the road where you were. If the numbers are continuous from the main carriageway into the adjacent road then this would suggest they're on record as being in Shepherd's Hill. [/quote] Also checked above and it seems this could be the case. Given all this I don't think there are chances of successful appeal based on incorrect location or any other grounds? Thanks |
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Wed, 23 Sep 2020 - 13:43
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 634 Joined: 8 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,778 |
Both the havering map and my os map app show the op on ivy lodge lane.
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Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 13:44
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Indeed the Ordnance Survey is normally accepted as conclusive evidence by courts and tribunals, and shows the OP was not parked at the location stated on the PCN:
It follows that the contravention alleged did not occur. Draft representation: ---------------- Dear London Borough of Havering, PCN XXXXXX alleged that my vehicle was parked with two wheels on the footway on Shepherds Hill, however my vehicle was in fact parked on Ivy Lodge Lane, and the CEO's photos will confirm this. As the vehicle was not parked on Shepherds Hill at all, the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 10:31
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 10 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,823 |
Informal challenge sent to council, will updated once I hear back from them.
Thank you all for helping here. |
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Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 22:21
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
And the postal addresses or have you just decided to ignore this aspect...as you can see, why should 157 Shepherd's Hill suddenly after 4 contiguous properties become 165 Ivy Lodge? Don't just ignore matters that don't suit your purpose, it can often be one's undoing. Check the postcodes, or not if you cannot be bothered. |
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Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 23:12
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 634 Joined: 8 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,778 |
The postcode is the same for the whole area, including ivy lodge farm. Postal addresses and actual locations are not always one and the same. Often little closes or small roads are overlooked for convenience when it comes to postal addresses. The same when it comes to the county in postal addresses, growing up my address always said Norfolk, but I lived over the border in Suffolk.
Whilst the council might not want to cancel the PCN, their own map lists where the op was parked as ivy lodge lane This post has been edited by disgrunt: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 23:14 |
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Sat, 26 Sep 2020 - 22:25
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
And the postal addresses or have you just decided to ignore this aspect.. Who cares about the postal address? The Ordnance Survey is considered authoritative by the courts in the UK, it will take a lot more than a discrepancy on the PAF to persuade a judicial office holder that the Ordnance Survey is wrong. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 13 Oct 2020 - 12:25
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 10 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,823 |
Hi
Just quick update got reply form council PCN cancelled. Thanks for help with this one. |
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Tue, 13 Oct 2020 - 12:28
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Can you post the letter. why they cancel could help others
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 13 Oct 2020 - 13:14
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 10 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,823 |
Can you post the letter. why they cancel could help others Just standard "I am pleased to inform you that upon considering your challenge and your comments, I have decided to cancel this PCN on this occasion" No specific reason given in the letter. Dear London Borough of Havering, PCN XXXXXX alleged that my vehicle was parked with two wheels on the footway on Shepherds Hill, however my vehicle was in fact parked on Ivy Lodge Lane, and the CEO's photos will confirm this. As the vehicle was not parked on Shepherds Hill at all, the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled. Challenge was as above I have added both Havering and Ordnance Survey maps to it. |
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