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[NIP Wizard] Vague Locus?
PaulSpink
post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 13:34
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - April 2008
Date of the NIP: - 2 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A5103 PRINCESS PARKWAY/PRINCESS ROAD,, MANCHESTER
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I think I passed the van leaving Manchester at the end of a 40 zone, entering a 50 zone - the NIP states I was doing 51. However, the NIP simply states the location as A5103 PRINCESS PARKWAY/PRINCESS ROAD,, MANCHESTER; and as anyone that knows that road, it runs from the A57 Mancunian Way in the centre of Manchester, down onto the M56 about 8 or so miles south. Along difference stretches of the road, the limit gradually increases from 30 to 40 to 50 before becoming the M56.

Could the NIP be invalid as it isn't clear as to where the van was (even if I do remember possibly passing one)?


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 14 May 2008 14:34:51 +0100

This post has been edited by PaulSpink: Wed, 14 May 2008 - 13:44
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post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 13:34
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The Rookie
post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 14:04
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If that description is indeed 8 miles, then vaguie locus, so you need to reply to the NIP naming yourself within the 28 days.

Simon


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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george lane
post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 14:44
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how accurate does the NIP location have to be ?
can they not provided a more detailed location latter or does if have to be accurate on the NIP ?

do you have to go to court to fight it on the gounds of the location ?
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jobo
post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 14:48
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its certainly confusing

pricess road is about 7 miles long, then it changes to princess parkway for about the last mile though both with the same road no

so either they have tried to change 2 roads into one or they mean on the border between the two

there are any number of land marks along this road they could have used

either way its inprecise

once the offence is 14 days old write and ask for a more exact locus and see what they reply

would also be intresting to get the road traffic order of the council and see where the limits actualy come into force. the signs are some times way out


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jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
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The Rookie
post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 15:08
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QUOTE (george lane @ Wed, 14 May 2008 - 15:44) *
how accurate does the NIP location have to be ?


Depends on the situation, the ruling in Young V Day made it clear there is no set accuracy, that between say 2jcts on an mway 3 miles apart may be OK, while 'Oxford street, London' would not, as there are landmarks available to create a better locus

QUOTE (george lane @ Wed, 14 May 2008 - 15:44) *
can they not provided a more detailed location latter or does if have to be accurate on the NIP ?


No, the NIP, to be valid, has to specify the location


QUOTE (george lane @ Wed, 14 May 2008 - 15:44) *
do you have to go to court to fight it on the gounds of the location ?


Possibly, depends if the scammers realise there mistake or not

If this relates to a case of your own, please stick to Q's in your own thread!

Simon



--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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PaulSpink
post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 16:11
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QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 14 May 2008 - 15:48) *
its certainly confusing

pricess road is about 7 miles long, then it changes to princess parkway for about the last mile though both with the same road no

so either they have tried to change 2 roads into one or they mean on the border between the two

there are any number of land marks along this road they could have used

either way its inprecise

once the offence is 14 days old write and ask for a more exact locus and see what they reply

would also be intresting to get the road traffic order of the council and see where the limits actualy come into force. the signs are some times way out


As suggested, I will reply asking for a more exact location. Is there any terminology I should / or shouldn't use when drafting my response? Also, what could the likely responses be; a -the location is correct and accept the fine, b - they give a more accurate location? If b what should my next step be?

Many thanks.
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Pete D
post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 16:15
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Princess Parkway is only 1.5 to 1.8km max long the parkway runs from just after Northbank walk to where it turns into the M56 382683,391251 to 382277,389573 so I do not think a Vague Locus will work. Pete D
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jobo
post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 16:18
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pete d

The nip says princess rd / parkway The whole lot is 8 miles

if it had said just parkway i think he would have been in trouble

but as it is he has a fair chance


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jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
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Pete D
post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 16:45
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Jobo. No it says "PRINCESS PARKWAY/PRINCESS ROAD" PRINCESS PARKWAY is a the late section of PRINCESS ROAD that turns into the M56, Princess Parkway is quite specific. Pete D
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jobo
post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 16:57
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i know i drove down it yester day , princess parkway is not part of princess road

its seperate place which changes road signs

so either they are trying to sugest the location of the speeding is on the border between the 2, in which case it should have said
the border between the 2 adjacent to the big church

or its ( they ) dont know the differaence. Locals call the whole thing ( all 8 miles of it ) the parkway

just iding two roads isnt an exact location when it could have been anywhere on either isnt good enough

i live here and im confused as to what they meean


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jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
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Pete D
post Wed, 14 May 2008 - 19:15
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According to Streetmap.co.uk it is an extension to Princess Road and is clearly detailed there. Local knowledge is all very well but history and memory is not detailed on the map. Pete D

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youngsyr
post Thu, 15 May 2008 - 11:40
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Off topic:

I lived in South Manchester from 1998-2002 and there was a scamera on Princess Parkway hidden just a few metres behind a massive sign for one of the junctions. There was no way of spotting it before you were on top of it.

It wouldn't happen to be this scamera, would it?
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jobo
post Thu, 15 May 2008 - 12:23
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Hi pete d
Not sure what we are debating here

Pricess road, stops, so does the postal adress and the road (extention in your words) is called Princess park way it a different road name and a diferent postal address

Its like the A1 stops and becomes the A1m and then changes back again

you are either on the A1 or the A1m
so you are either on princess rd or princess parkway

by putting both on the NIP there is a danger that I would be confused as to what poin t on an 8 mile strech of tarmac id been pinged

All so if you read the case law Local knowledge should be taken into account as to lickly confusion


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jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
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Pete D
post Thu, 15 May 2008 - 13:26
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It is the same road A5103 different name for that section where he was detected. http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=38...4&ay=393984
Pete D
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jobo
post Thu, 15 May 2008 - 15:29
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I know i said that in my first post so

its either one road a5103 in which case its 8 miles long and a vague locas



or



its two postal adresses Princess road or princess park way in which case combined they are 8 miles long
and its vague locas



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jobo

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Pete D
post Thu, 15 May 2008 - 15:57
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I would deem the location of the van to be as it is written A5103 PRINCESS PARKWAY/PRINCESS ROAD,, MANCHESTER i.e. on the A5103 at Princess Parkway part of Princess Road in Manchester. If the van was in the area of Princess Parkway then it is not a Vague Locus. The OP will have to check either from the photo's or form the scamera office, if they came back and stated it was Princess Road then that may be a different matter. Pete D
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The Rookie
post Fri, 16 May 2008 - 07:04
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Not knowing the area but A5103 PRINCESS PARKWAY/PRINCESS ROAD but sounds like one OR the other to me.....surely one stretch of road can only have one OFFICIAL name...even if its known by others locally...

Simon


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Hairyloon
post Fri, 16 May 2008 - 08:54
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 14 May 2008 - 16:08) *
Depends on the situation, the ruling in Young V Day made it clear there is no set accuracy, that between say 2jcts on an mway 3 miles apart may be OK, while 'Oxford street, London' would not, as there are landmarks available to create a better locus

This case keeps getting refered to here. Is the actual case report available anywhere on the web?
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Mika
post Fri, 16 May 2008 - 09:05
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QUOTE (Hairyloon @ Fri, 16 May 2008 - 09:54) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 14 May 2008 - 16:08) *
Depends on the situation, the ruling in Young V Day made it clear there is no set accuracy, that between say 2jcts on an mway 3 miles apart may be OK, while 'Oxford street, London' would not, as there are landmarks available to create a better locus

This case keeps getting refered to here. Is the actual case report available anywhere on the web?

This link link will take you to a summary of the case.


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Pete D
post Fri, 16 May 2008 - 10:21
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Nothing Vague here then. http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
like all the other maps I've checked inclding
http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|rykn...2.2626:17|a5103|

Unless the OP was not caught on the Parkway. Pete D

This post has been edited by Pete D: Fri, 16 May 2008 - 10:32
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