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PCN - Council CP, No charges for parking, ticket for being over two spaces, No P&D on weekends, no parking for long vehicles, no restrictions.
PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:04
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Hi all,

I am hoping someone will be able to advise on the current situation I have.


Last weekend I took our sports team in a mini bus to a sports centre, used their car park which is owned by the council. There are no parking charges at the weekend however they had a warden on that Sunday it seems!

Upon entering the car park we of course looked for coach/mini bus parking but there was nothing provided for such vehicles - only standard spaces. Instead of parking in a standard space and sticking out (the van is 7m) or blocking any access points/pathways, we parked in spaces parallel to the kerb and not reverse/drive in style spaces (if that makes sense). We parked in front of another mini bus too.

When returning to the van there was a parking ticket stating we had been fined for parking over two bays.
There was also a ticket on the other mini bus which I presume was for the same thing as it was parked in the same manner.

I appealed this stating that the vehicle was well parked, in a space that was not obstructing any other vehicles or access points. The car park wasn't full and therefore it wasn't an issue for space availability. There were no charges on a weekend and if there had have been charges we'd have paid for two spaces as we were aware it was over two bays. Also that I had no alternative as there were no designated spaces for longer vehicles which I found strange as teams must travel frequently to the venue...

The response I've had in short is as follows:
You were given a Penalty Charge Notice because part of your vehicle was outside the white lines of the parking bay. You are not allowed to park like this even if you have paid to park, are displaying an item correctly (for example a permit, Pay & Display ticket or disabled badge) or other cars have not left you enough room. Although one incorrectly parked car can make the next space too small for anyone else to use, we enforce the rule across both spaces. We do this to stop a knock-on effect of further cars parking incorrectly, reducing the available parking space even more.

Although there are no Pay & Display charges on a Sunday, all other parking restrictions within the car park still remain enforceable.

The fact that other cars may not have been given Penalty Charge Notices does not affect your Penalty Charge Notice, which was given correctly.


I think it goes without saying that I'm not willing to pay this fine but would like some help as to what to do next. I have photographic evidence, pretty much exactly the same as the council put in the online portal, but I will refrain from posting for now as I'm not sure what benefit it will bring to this post yet.

Any help much appreciated,

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post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:04
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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 14:53
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It's a converted 7m van classed as a motorhome which carries 6 people.
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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 18:33
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Back of pcn - https://ibb.co/xgGyrNV

Curious - what significance does this have?
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cp8759
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 19:06
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There's a will / may flaw on the back of the PCN (it says they will issue a notice to owner, it should say they may issue a notice to owner), so the logic used here can be argued: https://www.scribd.com/document/395140820/A...bridge-Wells-BC, that decision is based on this appeal I wrote: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1433347 but of course we would need to adopt it to the Road Traffic Act 1991 as amended by the designation order.

Whether the Scottish tribunal will follow this decision cannot be predicted, and we know Scottish adjudicators are less keen on technical arguments, but I still think it's an argument worth making. If nothing else, chances are the council won't understand it.


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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 21:16
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Thank you everyone, you've been very helpful and I understand where I have to go from here I think!
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stamfordman
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 21:17
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Post your challenge here first.
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cp8759
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 21:25
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QUOTE (PCNPK @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 21:16) *
Thank you everyone, you've been very helpful and I understand where I have to go from here I think!

I'm sorry to sound harsh but you have virtually no chance of succeeding if you go it alone. Post a draft on here first.


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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 23:39
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No no not at all! I just didn’t want to keep posting when there are others who need people’s time. I will post up though when it’s been put together. Thank you
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 06:13
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I appreciate what others have said about the Order but the simple fact remains, regardless of weight or number of passengers, that the Council have made provision for longer vehicles. It would therefore be perverse to single out the OP's vehicle for a different application of this exemption. Indeed I would argue that the Council would be unfair and prejudicial if it continued enforcement in the circumstances.

That said, I would still like to see some photos of how the vehicle was parked vis a vis the bay markings.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 09:18
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+1

And as this is the RTA and as procedural impropriety is not a statutory ground and as the cited case was in relation to a Bus Lane PCN, effectively a NTO, and not a pre-NTO PCN as in this case and as the case cited relied as much on the council's responses as to the notices themselves and as Scottish adjudicators apparently dislike technical appeals....

I would focus more on the contravention, to do which we need photos.
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Steve_999
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 09:39
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 06:13) *
I appreciate what others have said about the Order but the simple fact remains, regardless of weight or number of passengers, that the Council have made provision for longer vehicles. It would therefore be perverse to single out the OP's vehicle for a different application of this exemption. Indeed I would argue that the Council would be unfair and prejudicial if it continued enforcement in the circumstances.

That said, I would still like to see some photos of how the vehicle was parked vis a vis the bay markings.

Mick


As to how the OP's vehicle was parked, can they clarify?


I read their original post as saying they were parked across two the width of bays rather than overhanging (either front or rear) into a second parking space. The description was ambiguous, but if my assumption is correct then they have not complied with the requirement in post #13.

Possibly irrelevant if the requirement was not specified on-site.
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PCNPK
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 14:34
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Not over two bays width wise, overhanging would be the correct term in length. I thought I made that quite clear in the OP when I said parallel to the kerb. Pics to follow - other mini bus I have also found out is/was appealing too

Pics of our van and pics of other mini bus
https://ibb.co/BCTRD26
https://ibb.co/TbXnY0g

You can see in this photo we are parked directly beside the signage -

https://ibb.co/Nxgv7Rz
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stamfordman
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 14:38
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PCNPK
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 14:39
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Thank you - apologies I cannot get the embed option to work for me
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Steve_999
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 17:44
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Clear with pictures. Parallel to the kerb would have been entirely different if the parking spaces had backed onto a kerb, so you can see how words alone don't paint a thousand pictures. biggrin.gif
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PCNPK
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 21:05
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I see!

Any further thoughts seeing the pictures now anyone?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 21:12
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Can't see how PCN can be sustained - maybe your van wasn't big enough - if it had occupied 2 whole spaces it would have been OK...

I would wait for notice to owner - are you the registered keeper?
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PCNPK
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 21:38
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My husband is, yes!

So my question now is, I'll wait for the notice to owner...but do I go back to them again saying there were no rules or regulations on the signage in the car park for me to adhere to? I see there is some back and forth on the above Order and the example case with the bus lane notice etc (I think someone saying it doesn't really align with the underlying issue here?)
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cp8759
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 22:17
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Well there's various thoughts about the formal representations stage. Firstly, there are no terms and conditions in the car park, so how do you know what the restrictions are? Secondly, the TRO makes all sorts of provisions about large vehicles / heavy goods vehicles / large passenger vehicles, and such vehicles can park across multiple spaces, so the council is wrong in saying that you must park within a single bay (this is a failure to consider). Further to this, what evidence does the council have that your vehicle does or doesn't qualify as a large passenger vehicle, did the CEO count the seats (for the avoidance of doubt, you should not say how many people cat be seated within your vehicle, just make a generic assertion that your vehicle is a large passenger vehicle). And thirdly we have the will / may flaw, which I will need to adapt to the Road Traffic Act as applied by the relevant designation order.

I'm not sure there's much benefit in writing to them before the NtO is served.



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PCNPK
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 19:43
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Quick question, do they still only have 14 days to contact me after my 28 day period is up?
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Saleen07
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 20:21
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Hello PCNPK,

Would you be able to post a link to the car park location on google maps?

Even though the car park is free on a weekend, it is correct that the rest of the contraventions are still enforceable. So blue badge bays, out of bays, electric bays, etc are all still fully enforceable. The free parking would be viewed as a concession however all the other terms and conditions would still be expected to be complied with.

I wouldn’t bother with challenging on the technicalities as, like others here have said, adjudicators don’t tend to like that angle and will more likely view them as trivialities. Your vehicle whilst being long wouldn’t be classed as a heavy vehicle.

My opinion would be that unless the terms and conditions are nearby, you couldn’t know not to park across two bays. An adjudicator might be of the opinion that everyone knows they shouldn’t park across two bays however in the absence of terms and conditions, unlikely they’d press that against you. It could be viewed that you were stopping other vehicles from parking in the adjacent bays hence the PCNs being issued. It really is the apparent lack of a terms and conditions sign that a possible successful appeal hinges on.

Hope this is of help.

This post has been edited by Saleen07: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 09:20
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