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Box Junction Edgware Bus Station (Barnet Council PCN)
bella(trying to ...
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 20:25
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Hi again Guys,

This is our new dilemma.....Box Junction on Edgware high street adjacent to the tube station taxi rank (tube drop off and turn around & Edgware bus station)

I know there's another resent post about this area that Mr Mustard has been looking into, and we've been watching, as we have fallen foul of this peculiar strange box Junction also.

So....I've started my own thread as our video adds some further info on the area and the activity of the traffic flow.

In the video attached we are the white vehicle. the bus station and tube/taxi area is on the right of the image and there's a right hand turn lane in the middle of both of the Yellow Box "Junction"

There is also a set of traffic lights up ahead of the North bound flowing traffic which is a pedestrian crossing but this is not visible to the driver when 1st entering the YB.

https://imgur.com/4rHXhFc PCN pg1
https://imgur.com/0UMXw4U PCN pg2
https://imgur.com/wZJoqna PCN pg3
https://imgur.com/zzwO1p0 PCN pg4
https://imgur.com/LnMetz6 PCN pg5

https://imgur.com/GitUUPZ still image 1

https://imgur.com/j0Q9Mdc Still image 2

https://imgur.com/ldmhLsW Still image 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sZq8IMGpM8...eature=youtu.be Video footage

You'll also note that the bus turning left (south bound of the frame) gets itself caught in the adjacent YBox.

Hopefully by starting a new thread about this area might help bring about a discussion if not a warning about Edgware Bus station YBox "Junction" as I think this is cash cow area for Barnet.

I'll be interested in your views and opinions.

This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 20:32
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Mr Mustard
post Mon, 20 Apr 2020 - 18:46
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The PCN wording was corrected on 27 February


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cp8759
post Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 14:28
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Mon, 20 Apr 2020 - 19:46) *
The PCN wording was corrected on 27 February

I'm not sure if you response was directed at me, but I was referring to the fact that the paper appeal form is not enclosed, rather than anything to do with the PCN wording.


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Mr Mustard
post Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 18:51
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It was, sorry but to be on all fours with Maurice the form will need to be requested and not received. 3 other adjudicators disagree with Maurice so best not place too much reliance on that argument (even though I think it is a good one but that is merely my opinion).


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bella(trying to ...
post Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 09:42
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Thanks for the offers of help with this and the case to review.

we've tried ringing to request an adjudication form today and the main phone lines are issuing a recorded message and operating a scalled down service (due to covid 19 and short staffing)

we have whoever, managed to get through to someone on the Reasonable Adjustments (disability) telephone line on Barnet council website currently being manned by the 3rd party company NSL who also supply the parking attendants for Barnet Council, to request a form

The guy I spoke to was vague about what is happening, but said he would check with his manager and email copy me in to his communications.

In a different direction, this week, we've had a POPLA Ombudsman Services email in relation to a parking ticket appeal that was submitted in March adjourned due to Covid 19, so we wondered if there is likely to be adjournments supplied by the council PCN's and Adjudicators Appeals??

Either way, we're still sticking to the timelines of the NoR which are 29th Apr 2020 to pay £65 or 13th May 2020 to submit an appeal to the independent Environment and traffic Adjudicator.

Is it worth putting something in writing (email) to Barnet Council to request the Appeals Form?? and if so, when would be the best time to send this??

This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 09:44
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 11:19
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QUOTE (bella(trying to work) @ Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 10:42) *
Thanks for the offers of help with this and the case to review.

we've tried ringing to request an adjudication form today and the main phone lines are issuing a recorded message and operating a scalled down service (due to covid 19 and short staffing)

we have whoever, managed to get through to someone on the Reasonable Adjustments (disability) telephone line on Barnet council website currently being manned by the 3rd party company NSL who also supply the parking attendants for Barnet Council, to request a form

The guy I spoke to was vague about what is happening, but said he would check with his manager and email copy me in to his communications.

In a different direction, this week, we've had a POPLA Ombudsman Services email in relation to a parking ticket appeal that was submitted in March adjourned due to Covid 19, so we wondered if there is likely to be adjournments supplied by the council PCN's and Adjudicators Appeals??

Either way, we're still sticking to the timelines of the NoR which are 29th Apr 2020 to pay £65 or 13th May 2020 to submit an appeal to the independent Environment and traffic Adjudicator.

Is it worth putting something in writing (email) to Barnet Council to request the Appeals Form?? and if so, when would be the best time to send this??


Send them an e mail


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bella(trying to ...
post Thu, 23 Apr 2020 - 08:52
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We drafted this up yesterday to send today, but I received an email with the Appeals Form attached instead. the print is quite small, so will this letter be ok to send Requesting Reasonable adjustments?

Really conscious because I know we're going to struggle with filling this form in.

Is it easier to complete on line, and is there anything to add to our Appeal now the forms been sent?


I am writing with regards to your letter dated 16th April 2020 which I received on Monday 20th April RE: Formal Notice of Rejection of Representations for Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) as above.

I wish to request an Appeal Form so that I may appeal to the Independent Environment and Traffic Adjudicator. Please can you supply me with an Appeal Form to the above address, as your telephone system is not currently being manned.

I have also contacted your Request Reasonable Adjustments under the Equalities Act 2010 telephone line detailed on your website 0161 913 2523, and notified your adviser James that I have disabilities and needed to request Reasonable Adjustments to be able to submit my Appeal and requested I be sent the Appeal Forms.

I have today received an email from Andrew from NSL services with an Appeals form attached but I am finding it difficult to read with the small print sections. Please could you supply me with a copy of this form, in the post, to the above address, and in a larger font, ideally +12, and on buff or pink paper as a Reasonable Adjustment Request.

Could you please also supply me with details of how I can request Reasonable Adjustments.

I look forward to hearing from you with your response to this letter and email.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 23 Apr 2020 - 09:56
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QUOTE (bella(trying to work) @ Thu, 23 Apr 2020 - 09:52) *
We drafted this up yesterday to send today, but I received an email with the Appeals Form attached instead. the print is quite small, so will this letter be ok to send Requesting Reasonable adjustments?

Really conscious because I know we're going to struggle with filling this form in.

Is it easier to complete on line, and is there anything to add to our Appeal now the forms been sent?


I am writing with regards to your letter dated 16th April 2020 which I received on Monday 20th April RE: Formal Notice of Rejection of Representations for Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) as above.

I wish to request an Appeal Form so that I may appeal to the Independent Environment and Traffic Adjudicator. Please can you supply me with an Appeal Form to the above address, as your telephone system is not currently being manned.

I have also contacted your Request Reasonable Adjustments under the Equalities Act 2010 telephone line detailed on your website 0161 913 2523, and notified your adviser James that I have disabilities and needed to request Reasonable Adjustments to be able to submit my Appeal and requested I be sent the Appeal Forms.

I have today received an email from Andrew from NSL services with an Appeals form attached but I am finding it difficult to read with the small print sections. Please could you supply me with a copy of this form, in the post, to the above address, and in a larger font, ideally +12, and on buff or pink paper as a Reasonable Adjustment Request.

Could you please also supply me with details of how I can request Reasonable Adjustments.

I look forward to hearing from you with your response to this letter and email.


Idiots you have asked for a form so sending by e mail is not acceptable if you were to appeal in that way it would be far easier via the portal. You do not have to use the form at all in truth but the council are required to supply it if you ask


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bella(trying to ...
post Tue, 28 Apr 2020 - 11:10
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We've drafted up our Appeal for the London Tribunal Environment & Traffic Adjudicators and have added in a few sentences (highlighted in Red)

Please let us know if we can added or remove anything.

PCN number: XXXXXXX XXXX 2020
VREG: XXXXXXXX

I am making representation on the following grounds:

1. The yellow box does not comply with the regulations and therefore there is no contravention.
A ‘box junction’ is an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and is
a) At the junction between two or more roads
b) At a gyratory system or roundabout, but only if it has full time traffic signals
c) Along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4,5 meters wide at its narrowest point
d) A length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station.

2. The box junction is also too long and extends past the opposite carriageways box junction which services the tube station taxi rank and the entrance into and out of Edgware bus station, which is also separated by a central line for right turning into the tube station taxi rank. (Photographic evidence is attached)

3. The site in question is also subjected to completely unpredictable traffic behaviour.

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016:
Part 7 of Schedule 9 Art 11 (6)
(6) For the purpose of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the markings have been placed and which is –
(a) at a Junction between two or more roads;
(b) at a gyratory system or roundabout;
© along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 meters wide at its narrowest point; or
(d) on a length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station.

The Box in question is not a box located at a junction for there is no Junction in that direction of travel.

This stretch of road has 3 lanes, two of which are travelling north bound. The one where the alleged contravention is said to have occurred is travelled at a gradience when approaching the yellow box in question. The near side of the road on approach has obstructions from parked cars and disabled parking bays, pulling out onto the coming traffic. Other vehicles preforming U-turns, also including taxis and buses turning right into the traffic flow, and the box junction in question also has pedestrian crossings both at the the start and the end of the box.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2759904,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMdUJPM60UBzqmTnv5UFT5Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2...3312!8i6656


These unpredictable traffic manoeuvres are not foreseeable to the drivers travelling along and approaching the north bound yellow box, and the traffic flow gets regularly interrupted, and as the video and photographic evidence shows that the yellow box is also unnecessarily extended, so that vehicles get trapped in the extended area.

The 2nd north bound lane is used as a filtered turn right into the tube station and bus station areas, and as such, separates the two yellow boxes both north and south bound, and the two yellow boxes cannot be combined as this lane runs in between them.
The 3rd lane which is situated on the opposite carriage way, South bound, also has a yellow boxed area which is serviced by the junctions of the tube station and bus station entries, where as the North bound yellow box junction traffic flow is not subjected to any junctions as described above and there is No fire, police or ambulance station or premises in the vicinity.

If the box is to be defined as one box at a junction then it fails, the test of being at a junction in any event as the box extends beyond what can be said to be the confines of the junction.


The alleged junction on the opposite side of the carriageway, north bound, is not at a junction of a road as defined RTA 1988 s192.


If it were to be considered that the box was placed due to the bus station on the south bound carriageway, regulations clearly state that the box should not extend beyond the mouth of the junction. London Tribunals Steven Thurston vs Richmond & Thames (case ref: 217028540) found that markings which extend beyond the junction of two or more roads do not mark out a box junction by the prohibition.
On the video footage provided you can see that the light blue car in front could have continued to move forward but instead choose to stop short and we had to bib our vehicles horn to encourage the driver to move forward. It could not have been anticipated of this drivers’ actions. Had they not stopped short we would have been able to clear the box junction, allowing the traffic to continue to flow and added to the fact that the box junction is extended in length, then the vehicle in question would have cleared the box. London Tribunals Neel Pattni vs London Borough of Newham (case Ref: 219008506A)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sZq8IMGpM8&feature=youtu.be

The photograph evidence supplied also clearly shows how the box junction extends beyond the opposite junction markings both at the start and the end of the yellow box. Had the markings finished at the mouth of the junction, as the regulations state.

Start of YBox overhang opp Bus Station End of YBox overhang opp Tube station
London Tribunals Martin Forshaw vs Richmond and Thames (cases ref: 2170582946)
“The box junction observed in the CCTV is not standard. The furthest point of the yellow hatching proceeds beyond the junction. The same is not at commencement of the yellow hatchings entry point. The junction protrudes well beyond the junction mouth.
Boxes should not intrude into side roads and should be no bigger than is strictly necessary to protect the junction. The purpose is to prevent obstruction of the junction space not parts of the approaches or exits.” once
“Motorists are entitled to make the assumption that the yellow box will finish the junction is cleared. The markings in this box junction went well beyond the junction of the two roads in question.”

Combined with the lack of visibility on approach, taking into account the risk factors mentioned above, and the appeal points made within this representation, I look forward to receiving confirmation that this PCN has been cancelled.

Yours Sincerely

XXXXXXXXXX
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 28 Apr 2020 - 11:58
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What is the latest date by which you must register your appeal


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bella(trying to ...
post Tue, 28 Apr 2020 - 13:31
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Wednesday 13th May 2020
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 28 Apr 2020 - 14:23
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QUOTE (bella(trying to work) @ Tue, 28 Apr 2020 - 14:31) *
Wednesday 13th May 2020


Let me put some ideas to you. I will draft later tonight


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 11:48
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Bella

Look at this you can fill in the details bit and use it verbatim or amend or just take out bits it as you wish. its up to you I think it covers all the pertinent arguments. I have not argued re the appeal form not being sent. whilst there may be some merit I feel it might be seen to much as a fishing expedition to use it

https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtBHPhdJdppVyHRHTm8...QjPqN3?e=PVXws9


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Mr Mustard
post Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 12:42
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Is there an argument to be made that if the box junction could legitimately be placed at the entrance to a bus station the Regulations would say so, they mention fire, police and ambulance stations.

Didn't a box outside Wood Green Bus Garage fall foul of this interpretation about 10 years ago? There was a yellow box there in 2008 but there isn't one in 2020

This post has been edited by Mr Mustard: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 12:44


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 13:02
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 13:42) *
Is there an argument to be made that if the box junction could legitimately be placed at the entrance to a bus station the Regulations would say so, they mention fire, police and ambulance stations.

Didn't a box outside Wood Green Bus Garage fall foul of this interpretation about 10 years ago? There was a yellow box there in 2008 but there isn't one in 2020


I did set out were they can place a box but perhaps pointing out wher the cannot won't hurt I wasn't about 10 years ago but if you can guide me a bit on the case from then I will spend a bit of time looking for it


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bella(trying to ...
post Wed, 6 May 2020 - 18:42
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Thank you sooo much PastmyBest & Mr Mustard.

we've not received the form through in the post so will have to submit online.

Will we need to add anything from our original reps? ie photos, GSM and video?

Is there anything else worth adding?

We've got till 13th May.

This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Wed, 6 May 2020 - 18:45
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 6 May 2020 - 19:21
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QUOTE (bella(trying to work) @ Wed, 6 May 2020 - 19:42) *
Thank you sooo much PastmyBest & Mr Mustard.

we've not received the form through in the post so will have to submit online.

Will we need to add anything from our original reps? ie photos, GSM and video?

Is there anything else worth adding?

We've got till 13th May.


I would send it verbatim your other arguments are mitigation and adjudicators cannot find on that so the could only detract


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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 9 May 2020 - 10:42
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 6 May 2020 - 20:21) *
QUOTE (bella(trying to work) @ Wed, 6 May 2020 - 19:42) *
Thank you sooo much PastmyBest & Mr Mustard.

we've not received the form through in the post so will have to submit online.

Will we need to add anything from our original reps? ie photos, GSM and video?

Is there anything else worth adding?

We've got till 13th May.


I would send it verbatim your other arguments are mitigation and adjudicators cannot find on that so the could only detract


Bella

after some good research by Mr M also send this addendum

https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtBHPhdJdppVyUXtGLl...0EMUMo?e=FdgryE


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bella(trying to ...
post Sat, 9 May 2020 - 11:47
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WOW!!! Excellent biggrin.gif Thank you both Pastmybest and Mr M....we've added this, luckily we were preparing to send it today so we don't need to make it as an addendum.

just reworded it slightly

"To add to this appeal, I would direct the adjudicator to a press article. Although it is from 2008 and the regulations in force at that time would be the TSRGD 2002. The present incarnation TSRGD 2016 has in place exactly the same regulation as regards placement of yellow box junction. This as the article points out, does not include outside bus stations."

And we've slotted it in below third limb title last sentence below:

"I contend that taking this view the box is not situated at a junction of two or more roads and is thus placed illegally and no enforcement possible."


and just above this sentence:

"I thank the adjudicator for their consideration of my arguments, I invite them to find any one or all correct interpretations of the regulations and it would follow to allow my appeal"


When we submit the appeal on line do we select "contravention didn't occur?" (as usual, its the only fit-able option available laugh.gif )

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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 9 May 2020 - 13:41
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Contravention did not occur and penalty exceeds etc you can pick both


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bella(trying to ...
post Sat, 9 May 2020 - 13:58
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Thanks, yes it does give the option to select both as reasons for appeal.

There's also an option to select "further evidence to follow"

Is it worth selecting YES on this, just in case there might be an addendum or adding somethings later nearer the time? Its possible this will get held up given the current lock down situation.

we'd like to appear in person, but are aware that given covid situation they might not be able to accommodate for awhile.

Is it better to attend in person or just let this unfold through the post and email?

Just trying to covering every base.



This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Sat, 9 May 2020 - 14:06
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