PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

NTK received outside of 14 days - challenge?
freedom1
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 15:40
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,300



Hi all

I've been reading through the forum and have seen some good advice which has given me the confidence to challenge a parking charge I've just been notified of. Before I do so I'd appreciate a second opinion and any advice in case i'm missing something (this is the first time I've received a private parking charge).

The letter is from Ipserv Limited who are managing a local university car park. They are a member of BPA and the letter refers to POPLA as an option if an appeal to them fails. The letter is headed Notice to Keeper and was presumably generated via ANPR.

They are asking for £100 (£60 if paid within 14 days). The letter clearly shows photographs of my car with recorded entry and exit times and a visible number plate. The letter also appears to comply with the law regarding the information it includes

Where I think I might have a case is that the event was on 23/4/19 and the date of issue of the letter was 10/6/19. No ticket was issued to the driver prior to me receiving the NTK.
From what I can gather where a ticket was not issued they need to contact the registered keeper within 14 days to comply with sch 4 of the protection of freedoms act paragraph 9 (2). As they did not do this I can appeal and just decline to name the driver.

This seemed a relevant thread: http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t115401.html

I'd be grateful for your views on this.

Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 15:40
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 15:47
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 30,945
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



Are you the registered keeper?

Can we see a redacted version of the PCN? (Does it claim any keeper liability or only the driver?)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 15:48


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dave65
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 16:15
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 674
Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Member No.: 78,368



Is the car on lease or hired?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 16:41
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,017
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Yes, without a windscreen ticket the have to deliver the notice before 14 days POFA 9 (4) .

There are some templates for this on the forum under my name.

There's probably a lot more fails.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
freedom1
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 16:48
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,300



QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 16:47) *
Are you the registered keeper?

Can we see a redacted version of the PCN? (Does it claim any keeper liability or only the driver?)


Hi - I am the registered keeper. Please see attached (hope I've redacted correctly!). I'll send the back of the letter separately as the file is too large

QUOTE (Dave65 @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 17:15) *
Is the car on lease or hired?


No it's owned. Thanks

Edited to include both pages with a smaller file size. Thanks

This post has been edited by freedom1: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 12:30
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Slithy Tove
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 17:07
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,352
Joined: 5 Jan 2012
Member No.: 52,178



There are other POFA failures as well as the late delivery. Only one fail is needed in any case. This ought to win at POPLA, but you never know.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 17:08
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,017
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Save the file to an image hosting file, such as imgur, and provide the link. ( to make life easy could you put it the right way up?)

The timings, and the alleged breach, suggest there was a windscreen ticket so they'll have to deliver between day 28 and 56.

The only thing they seem to have got correct is the warning to keeper, 8 (2) (f),

Compare that letter with what should be there in POFA paragraph 8.

Appeal highlighting all those fails and if they don't withdraw then you should be successful at POPLA

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 17:12
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 17:20
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 30,945
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



They are claiming the right to recover from the keeper which is strange. (Although do have a rider saying subject to them complying)

Seems dead easy to beat...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
freedom1
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 12:30
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,300



QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 18:08) *
Save the file to an image hosting file, such as imgur, and provide the link. ( to make life easy could you put it the right way up?)

The timings, and the alleged breach, suggest there was a windscreen ticket so they'll have to deliver between day 28 and 56.

The only thing they seem to have got correct is the warning to keeper, 8 (2) (f),

Compare that letter with what should be there in POFA paragraph 8.

Appeal highlighting all those fails and if they don't withdraw then you should be successful at POPLA


Hi - I'll re-scan it later and try Imgur as you suggest. Just to confirm that no ticket was given at the time (nothing on windscreen etc) so I think we're talking about para 9 here. This is the first contact I've received.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 12:54
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,017
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



If no windscreen ticket then yes the 14 day limit does apply and paragraph 9. Could be a ghost ticket. The operator puts the ticket on the windscreen, takes a photo and then removes the ticket. Just be aware.

Yes appeal on the 14 day matter. Save the other failures to throw at POPLA when they decline your appeal. As I said there are samples under my name in the forum. Normally would copy and paste for you but I'm not on the usual computer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
freedom1
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 12:23
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,300



QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 13:54) *
If no windscreen ticket then yes the 14 day limit does apply and paragraph 9. Could be a ghost ticket. The operator puts the ticket on the windscreen, takes a photo and then removes the ticket. Just be aware.

Yes appeal on the 14 day matter. Save the other failures to throw at POPLA when they decline your appeal. As I said there are samples under my name in the forum. Normally would copy and paste for you but I'm not on the usual computer.


Thanks all for your replies. Ostell - I've now managed to work out Imgur and provide links below of both sides of the letter received and 3 photos of signage as you drive up to the car park.
https://imgur.com/a/SoNrcx4
https://imgur.com/a/0G64Mmk
https://imgur.com/WE69tj5
https://imgur.com/Tl5qqI0
https://imgur.com/a/5owFQoz

I've located what seems to be a suitable 14 day letter template from one of your posts and was going to use this as a basis to appeal the charge on this point (copied below). You also mention signs of a 'foreboding nature' in th example but I'm not sure if the signs present at this car park are sufficiently foreboding! I'd appreciate any further thoughts on this. I should add that I've just received a further letter (identical with the exception of the date) and I think it likely that i'll receive a few more. I expect the majority to be outside of the 14 days limit so presume I just challenge each one on the same grounds. Thanks again for your support as this is causing me a fair bit of anxiety at the momen.t

[i]Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to notify the keeper within 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended as mandated by section 9 (4) (b) and (5) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability to the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct. If you decide not to cancel this PCN then you should provide me with a Parking On Private Land Appeal code so that I can appeal to them, and they will then direct you to cancel.

Yours etc.
[/i]




Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 12:58
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,017
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Yes use that template

One of the signs is definitely for forbidding in that it says permit holders only a d no offer for non per but holders
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
freedom1
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 13:05
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,300



QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 13:58) *
Yes use that template

One of the signs is definitely for forbidding in that it says permit holders only a d no offer for non per but holders


Cheers. There is a drop down on the appeals site for reason. Various options but I think I should either select: 'I did not receive the charge notice on my vehicle' or 'I was not aware I had incurred a charge notice'. There is no option for 'other' available.

I'd then just copy and paste that template in to the 'reason' section.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 17:31
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,017
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



NO!!! both of those option hint that you were the driver, just what they need so that they don't have to rely on POFA and continue against the driver

First class Royal Mail with free certificate of posting from a Post Office
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
freedom1
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 06:56
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,300



Ah ok I thought that might be the case. Would an appeal be accepted if it's not via their online portal though?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 08:36
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,017
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



It says that all appeals must be in writing and you have their address
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
freedom1
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 11:17
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,300



QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 09:36) *
It says that all appeals must be in writing and you have their address

Makes sense - thanks. Do you see any issue with me including my email address in addition to name and address in my letter? I'd like to receive a response as quickly as possible.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 11:35
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,017
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



You could give them your email address but I would prefer to get a response in hardcopy.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
freedom1
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 12:28
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,300



QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 12:35) *
You could give them your email address but I would prefer to get a response in hardcopy.


Ok thanks. Letter sent without email. I'll post the reply.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
freedom1
post Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 15:40
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,300



My appeal was successful smile.gif - link to a scanned copy of the letter I received below. I received 5 PCNs in total for different dates - all outside the 14 day limit and have received 3 successful responses broadly identical to this letter to date. Still awaiting a response to the remaining 2 but I can't see it being any different. Thanks all for the support and advice.

https://i.imgur.com/Katflez.jpg

This post has been edited by freedom1: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 15:44
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Monday, 22nd July 2019 - 21:52
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.