Bus Lane (Lambeth) Motorcycle PCN Options

[nick_h]

Hi,

Just got a PCN for riding in a bus lane on Lambeth Road near Lambeth Bridge. I have been away and so I need to get on with it, but I want to challenge it anyway as it seems completely unfair. (In general, how adjacent roads can have different rules re bus lanes is a joke, to be honest).

I didn't think it was a bus lane up to the zebra crossing (but is it?) as the road is not red. I was intending to to go up the left lane (as I was turning left at the top), and it looked like the bus lane had finished, since the road was not red (although there is a red patch in the google maps screenshot). I am not familiar with the route so did not know which bit was what. As I went around the corner and the bus lane turned red again, I then went back to the non-buslane bit of road.

No buses, so I was not impeding anyone or thing.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I just don't think this was fair and is not that clear. Had the road continued to be red, it would have been a fair cop (just about), but this is not.

Any good suggestions would be gratefully received as to how to proceed and hopefully not have to pay another unfair tax. Thank you in advance!!

N

PS I tried attaching screenshots etc. but my empty attachments folder said there was no space, so not sure how to add pics!





I need to go back and check it all as there is a google map more recent shot which shows no red painted bus lane at all, but I need to recheck signage as my memory is obviously not that good! I will check tomorrow

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[nick_h]

I have a Charge Certificate now - do I need to wait for Notice of Intended Prosecution? I seem to remember being told it was too late to appeal once before...

Thanks!

N

Any thoughts on the video anyone?

https://vimeo.com/271138806

I still think it is de minimis as it is so minor. Thanks, N

[PASTMYBEST]

Lets get things in perspective so we can advise you. You will not receive a NIP this is not criminal.

For the moment the contravention does not matter, you cannot appeal a charge certificate. What you can do is await the next document entitled an order for recovery. With this will be a form that allows you to make a witness statement WS or a statutory declaration SD, I can never remember which, but they both serve the same purpose. It will allow you under very specific terms to submit that you


did not receive the PCN

Made representations but did not receive a response or

more unlikely appealed but did not receive a decision.

If you can truthfully submit under one of the relevant clauses then the charge certificate will be revoked and you will then be back in a position to make representations or appeal.

Give us a time line

date of PCN

dates and content of ALL communication and method both from you t othe authority and them to you

[nick_h]

Hi,

Just got a letter from Equita asking for £513 as I am waiting for an NIP. I am worried that I have made an error and will be due to pay this vast amount.

I am sure that I have been given a wrongly issued PCN (see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...119677&hl=) motorbike in a bus lane. I want to go and argue my case. There is precedent and a video which clearly shows it is wrong, but they won't accept it. I twice emailed Lambeth to advise that I wanted to go to court (and a change of address) neither of which got a reply.

I would be most grateful if someone could let me know what the situation is...

I have never been in this situation before, but wanted to stand up for justice (and prevent further grief from my wife!).

Thanks,

N

[peterguk]

see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...119677&hl=

Let's start with basics. One case - one thread. A mod will merge this post with your other thread.

[Neil B]

You didn't answer the questions in post #22 of your original thread.

You need to - urgently.

Did the Order for Recovery, mentioned by PMB arrive.

What do you mean by "change of address" - and telling Lambeth - how?

[southpaw82]

Just got a letter from Equita asking for £513 as I am waiting for an NIP.

What has an NIP got to do with it?

I am sure that I have been given a wrongly issued PCN (see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...119677&hl=) motorbike in a bus lane.

Does this new thread relate to that PCN?

[Earl Purple]

On 21 May you said "I'm going to challenge this". Did you?

You then came back on 16 July and said you had a charge certificate and were waiting for an NIP, by which you mean an Order of Recovery. But we don't know if you got it, and then you started another thread today, presumably about bailiffs.

There is a procedure to follow to challenge these and certain things that have to be done in time.

[Earl Purple]

sounds like he e-mailed but not sure a formal challenge can be made by e-mail.

Therefore they did not receive a formal challenge and went to Charge Certificate stage and later presumably an Order for Recovery and which would probably be around £195 so I guess the higher amount means it has escalated further.

[Neil B]

Nick.
You've read the answers; why have you not answered the questions or even acknowledged
the responses?

[nick_h]

Hi,
I had not seen #22, Neil B, as I did not realise that the replies went onto a second page, so I just thought there had not been further replies.

Timeline is PCN in April, took until July to get the video, I challenged it and it was refused - even though I quoted precedent. I was waiting for what I had mistakenly thought was a NIP, and have had 2 money chasing letters from debt collectors, the latest being £513. It sounds like I have not been thorough enough and made procedural errors... on dear!

Basically I was told my appeal had been declined so I could not appeal that I had not received the PCN, appealed and not heard back nor did not receive a decision so I had nowhere to go. I thought that then I would get an order for recovery.

Does this mean I am stuffed? If so, do I have any option but to pay? Where can I go from here?

Thanks

[peterguk]

Is this thread related to your other thread mentioned in posts 2 and 4?

[Neil B]

Is this thread related to your other thread mentioned in posts 2 and 4?

You need to answer this so the moderators can put it all in one place.

Timeline is PCN in April, took until July to get the video, I challenged it and it was refused - even though I quoted precedent. I was waiting for what I had mistakenly thought was a NIP, and have had 2 money chasing letters from debt collectors, the latest being £513. It sounds like I have not been thorough enough and made procedural errors... on dear!

Basically I was told my appeal had been declined so I could not appeal that I had not received the PCN, appealed and not heard back nor did not receive a decision so I had nowhere to go. I thought that then I would get an order for recovery.

Does this mean I am stuffed? If so, do I have any option but to pay? Where can I go from here?

Thanks

It's still unclear.
You need to show us all of the correspondence between you and Council.

And you mentioned 'address change' ?

Is there a timeline of your case on Council website you can show us?

I suspect you DO have a valid case but getting the info from you is like blood from a stone.
Tell your missus to nag you some more.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 11:18

[Earl Purple]

Yes I think we were waiting for a mod to merge.

The OP doesn't understand the difference between moving traffic offences that are "civil" and those that are "criminal". This is a civil issue so there is no NIP, the procedure is PCN which you can informally challenge and will often be allowed to pay the discount after they respond, then Notice to Owner which you have to appeal or pay, and if that appeal fails you get a Notice of Rejection which you can then appeal to the Independent Adjudicator.

You can ignore the PCN with no challenge and wait for the Notice to Owner and then appeal, but if you fail to appeal at that stage, or after the Notice of Rejection, it is then too late (assuming you did receive these and simply ignored them), and you will be served a Charge Certificate which is 1.5 times the penalty. After that comes an Order For Recovery and if you still fail to pay, you get bailiffs which gets to be extremely expensive.

Note: for moving traffic offences, I think the PCN and Notice to Owner are the same, but the discount period is still 2 weeks, and they are put on hold for an informal chalenge. For a parking fine stuck to a vehicle, that and the notice to owner are separate.

There really should be a proper clear FAQ, with the difference of the 3 types (Police, Council and Private) and what the steps are in each case, what to do and what not to do. It confuses so many people who visit that site.


This post has been edited by Earl Purple: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 11:19

[Incandescent]

There really should be a proper clear FAQ, with the difference of the 3 types (Police, Council and Private) and what the steps are in each case, what to do and what not to do. It confuses so many people who visit that site.

I agree, but it does seem a lot of people just do not read what is on the PCN and subsequent documents.

[nick_h]

Hi,

Yes it is the same case (apologies mods) - I have been trying to find paperwork, (I moved home and have been travelling quite a bit for work) so I'm sorry I could not find all this before. After going through a lot of boxes I have found them.

16 May - I challenged initially on the basis of not having received the video link- online.

Reply by email same day saying will be dealt with in 28 days.

2 July - Charge Certificate saying I had 28 days to make representations or pay the penalty.

16 July - I emailed saying 'I have received a charge certificate for the alleged offence. Firstly, please note my new address and secondly I do not accept that this is a valid PCN and would like to make a representation.'

03 August - got an Order for Recovery(PE2) which included a Statutory Declaration Unpaid Penalty Charge (PE3)which said I can only appeal on the grounds of 1. Did not receive the PCN 2. Made Representations about the PCN but did not receive a notice of rejection 3. Appealed to the Traffic adjudicator but received no response.

I could not use any of these to appeal.

I was waiting for some way of appealing, but did not get one.

6 October - Notice of Enforcement from Equita £278

23 October - Notice of Enforcement from Equita £513

So there we are. I cannot see where I could have appealed to the adjudicator.

Where to go from here? Any ideas gratefully received...
Thanks
N

[Neil B]

but it does seem a lot of people just do not read what is on the PCN and subsequent documents.

2 July - Charge Certificate saying I had 28 days to make representations or pay the penalty.

A Charge Certificate does not say that?

16 May - I challenged initially on the basis of not having received the video link- online.



03 August - got an Order for Recovery(PE2) which included a Statutory Declaration Unpaid Penalty Charge (PE3)which said I can only appeal on the grounds of 1. Did not receive the PCN 2. Made Representations about the PCN but did not receive a notice of rejection 3. Appealed to the Traffic adjudicator but received no response.

I could not use any of these to appeal.

What was wrong with that one?

Show us your message informing Lambeth of your change of address.

[cp8759]

You should have challenged the OfR on the basis identified by Neil B above, you had no good reason not to so I think you'll struggle to get out of this one now.

[silversquirrel01]

The only thing I didn't add is the black page of the licence plate...
Going now to view the site. Next instalment soon...

If there's nothing else on the PCN, then it's invalid. The London Local Authorities Act 1996 specifies under section 4(3)(g) that the PCN must state "the effect of paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 to this Act", paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/...edule/1/enacted

I cannot see anything on the PCN that comes remotely close to satisfying this requirement, not even in the era of substantial compliance. As the recipient is not notified of what the grounds for representations are, the PCN is highly prejudicial, as the recipient is left with no idea of what might constitute grounds for representations. In light of this, the PCN must be held to be a nullity.

Dear cp8759,

Legally, what does “must state the effect of” actually mean? In plain English this does not necessarily mean that each of the items in stated in paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 to this Act have to be stated as written. Unless “must state the effect of” is a legal expression then this direction is ambiguous to me. It could just mean that it must be stated that if one wishes to make a representation then these will be considered and the council will respond, including cancelling the PCN at its discretion. At this stage, representations are informal so it could be argued that the defendant is not disadvantaged by not having the list of eligible grounds explicitly stated at this stage.

In Schedule 1 of the London Local Authorities Act 1996, P1, 2(f) states than an enforcement notice must state that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 2. Nowhere in para 1 or para 2 does it explicitly state that the enforcement notice has to list the eligible grounds (even if common sense would dictate that it should). So, unless there has been case law which confirms otherwise, it looks that even the enforcement notice does not have to explicitly list the eligible grounds for representation. It just suggests that these are the grounds stated in the Act for which a person has a legal right to demand the council to consider a representation.

I am playing Devil’s advocate but I would be interested to hear your opinion.

This post has been edited by silversquirrel01: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 - 14:55

[cp8759]

I'm not going to give you an opinion on a stale thread, if you fancy a hypothetical discussion start a thread in the flame pit.