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PCN - In my own parking Space!
MrMe
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 10:53
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Hello...

One Parking Solutions, who have authority on our residential site (apartment complex) have issued 2 PCN's over a 5 day period where my parking permit had slipped from the windscreen and into the dash. Only the top of the parking permit is visible but you certainly couldn't see even at an angle that the permit is for the space in question. So a permit was displayed but not readable and has quite obviously slipped from the windscreen.

I have politely explained this to One Parking Solutions and their Solicitors however they are hell bent on gaining paid. I have warned them that "Any further attempts to extract money from me will result in an administration charge for each letter at £90 per reply". The car, at the time was owed by a Limited Company, which is still running, the ownership of the car has switched, but I feel justified as a Ltd Co. changing them for my time. I have a copy of the contract between OPS and the site managers. I have also emailed OPS (cc'ing in the Solicitors and our management company) in late April 2019 which OPS and the management company have ignored. The Solicitors simply fobbed it off with: "Our client accepts you may have a valid permit however has evidence that you didn't properly display it which fundamentally undermines its parking scheme which you were made aware of when accepting the permit. In the event payment isn’t made or a reply is not received within the next 30 days further legal action will be taken."

I have now received County Court paperwork and I'm really quite perplexed on how to deal with this and, especially, how they think they can win this case?!
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post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 10:53
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The Rookie
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 10:57
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FIRST dig out your lease, what exactly does it say about parking?


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Redivi
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 12:20
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Who exactly has received the claim, you personally or the Ltd company ?

If it's the company, any hearing will be held at the ONS local court not yours

It does mean though that the company cannot possibly be the driver so any liability will be as the registered keeper
ONS will struggle to show that the car was on company business and therefore the company has liability for its driver
A keeper is not liable for additional debt collection charges

To recover payment from the keeper, ONS must meet all the conditions of the Protection of Freedoms Act
The first condition is that it must make an individual application to the DVLA for every PCN
It can't use details on file

First check therefore is to contact DVLA and request the information

Regarding the claim form, follow the instructions immediately to acknowledge service
This will give you an extra 14 days to research and deliver your defence

You do not contest jurisdiction of the County Court
You dispute all of the debt
Do not write anything at all in the defence box - not defence to follow or even a full stop
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The Rookie
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 14:10
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Given what the OP has said I think keeper liability is likely to be irrelevant as it sounds like the driver ID has been revealed during the appeal process.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Redivi
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 14:26
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He probably has but we've seen a few threads where the PPC has failed to issue a new Notice as a result of the information

As a result it's continued to pursue the keeper
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MrMe
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 15:58
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So far I can see it just says I have the right to park not more than one private vehicle in the space, that they have the right to nominate or substitute the space to another one. I see nothing in the lease that even says I need to display a permit.

This whole thing is absolutely nuts. It's an under ground parking that is owned by the flat which I own. Crazy!

This post has been edited by MrMe: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 16:06
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Redivi
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 16:06
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I see nothing in the lease that even says I need to display a permit.

That's usually the case and a valid defence

The question remains
Who has the parking company issued the claim against - you or your company ?
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Jlc
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 16:20
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So that seems to give you primacy over their signs. (They cannot offer you anything you already have)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MrMe
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 17:28
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I have obtained the contract between One Parking Solutions and the property managers, which does state the need to display the permit etc. as one would expect. The pictures sent by the company clearly shows the top of the parking permit, so it is displayed but rather obviously has slipped down below the blacked out part of the windscreen, covering the details of the permit, this can be seen on both PCN notices.

So basically, I'm still looking for other paperwork that may have further info on the parking space, but I doubt there is anything other than the lengthy "Lease of the plot" paperwork when we took ownership. So bearing that in mind, I don't see how the parking company has any legal grounding. Maybe though by accepting the parking permit and using the space while they have clear signs on display, I am accepting the terms that come with the parking space?

The letter is addressed to the ltd company, not myself directly as a private individual.

This post has been edited by MrMe: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 17:29
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Sheffield Dave
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 20:15
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If you have a pre-existing right to park granted by your lease, then the signs become irrelevant. They don't offer you anything, so you would have have no reason to accept the contact offered by their signs. You display the permit merely as a courtesy.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 07:44
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If this is YOUR space, then you are the landHOLDER and they need a contract *with you* to operate, not a MC
Tell them to cease and desist as tehy are in breach of their ATAs CoP which mandates they have landHODLER authority to operate, which they do not have
Send the same to the MC, telling them to CEASE AND DESIST from allowing their agent to trespass on your property and interfere with your landholder rights to quite and peacable enjoyment of YOUR property

If they fail to control their agent, who they are fully liable for, you reserve the rights to take all necessary legal action against them including, btu not limited to, an injunction, and at their expense.
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MrMe
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 09:52
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"I have now heard from OPS who have advised that it has progressed to far for them to be able to cancel the PCN. They have suggested that I call Gladstone’s Solicitors and make an offer on what is called a drop hands offer to settle the claim.

OPS are willing to contact Gladstone’s and ask them if they can accept a reduced offer, however they cannot guarantee that they will accept this."

This is the response from the company KFH who manage the grounds. Obviously I have no desire to pay someone to use my own space...

This post has been edited by MrMe: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 09:53
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 10:29
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Yeah, its also complete and utter crap

OPS hired gladstones!
They TELL GS what to do
Your MC is incompetent and then some if they belivve that twaddle

TELL KFH to TELL their AGENT OPS to cancel any and all tickets and discontionie any claim over *your space*, else you will hold KFH liable jointly with their agent for *all* of your costs.
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Redivi
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 10:55
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OPS are willing to contact Gladstone’s and ask them if they can accept a reduced offer, however they cannot guarantee that they will accept this."

I would be inclined to offer drop-hands Without Prejudice save to Costs and, if refused, include this correspondence in an evidence pack

Popcorn time if Gladstones has to explain this curious arrangement in court

Would discontinuing the claim at the last minute amount to unreasonable behaviour and justify the OP claiming for costs



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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 11:09
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Within 7 days I would have thought so, as thats the min time theyre supposed to give notice for?

OP - drop hands means neither side pays anything to the other - claim is just dropped, you dont get paid costs, neither do they
This is basicallya trap - if they accept it, theyre out their fees
If they dont, you include this in your evidence bundle and ask them to explaim this arrangement (its odd - if you hire a solicitor, do you really expect the solicitor to be the one saying what you can and cant accept?)
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MrMe
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 11:28
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Thanks for the reply. Further to the above I have received the following:

"Just to clarify the land is owned by XXXX and you lease your flat and parking space from them, and as such the contract was between OPS & XXXX, signed via KFH on behalf of their client.

We have to have parking enforcement in place to ensure that those people who have spaces allocated are able to park as and when needed, as without enforcement it would be a free for all with people parking in other peoples spaces.

I have checked the lease and under the Third Schedule Lessee’s Covenants - Use of Parking Space – To Observe the Regulations paragraph 28 states. At all times during the term to observe the Regulations. There are numerous signs displayed in and around the car park which advises of the current regulations."
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The Rookie
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 11:40
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NO no no.

If you have leased the land then neither KFH nor the landowner can add additional items over and above the contract that you have with the landowner.

They do not and cannot have the landowners authority to employ OPS unless the landowner is also complicit in trying to derogate your grant (right to use your space) as well, so that twaddle is meaningless.

Get your head round this, stop being a sheep and start being a wolf. Get onto them and HARD, they are meant to work for YOU after all.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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MrMe
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 11:50
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Ya I already responded with "I’m pretty certain our lease hold contract supersedes any signage. I haven’t signed anything allowing changes to the lease. Please do send over a full copy of this document though, I haven’t seen that yet and there is no reference to any other documents in the lease hold agreement."

Awoooooooooooo
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Sheffield Dave
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 11:58
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Even if your lease required you to follow the "regulations" displayed on the signs, failure to do so would imply a breach of your lease, which is a matter between you and your landlord. At no point have you entered into any implied contract with the PPC (which might come with an obligation to pay them money).
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 12:34
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As above
The lease cannot
- take away your right to use yoru demised space for the purposes set out in the lease
- cannot bind you to a 3rd party's rules in order to enjoy te use of the space
- cannot require you to pay a third party for any alleged breach of these rules

There cannot be a contract, as you had no need to enter one; they offer you literally nothing
KFH have fallen for the cmoplete twaddle; if you have someone parked in your space, what OPS would do is ticket them, ticket you if you parked elsewhere, and do nothing to resolve your issue!

TELL KFH TO *INSTRUCT* OPS to discontnue
ELse you will hold KFH liable for your costs, and reserve all legal action *including* a claim against KFH for breach of the DPA as they had no reasonable cause to allow their agent to get yoru details
You remove any impolied permission for OPS to enter *your* demised space
Any further action will be prime facie evidence of trespass, fo rwhich your assessed damages are £100 per incident.
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