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Whose fault
kc2506
post Sat, 3 Dec 2022 - 19:14
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At a mini roundabout. I've checked the right and in clear. A car at the roundabout junction to my left has indicated. I pull out, believing he will turn down the road I am pulling out of. To my surprise he proceeds to do a u turn. I brake, avoiding collision. Nothing happens. Question is whose fault is this, and if he had a dashcam could I get done for something. (I don't think he did as we were so close I would have seen).
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post Sat, 3 Dec 2022 - 19:14
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Spandex
post Tue, 13 Dec 2022 - 22:37
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Tue, 13 Dec 2022 - 22:01) *
QUOTE (Spandex @ Tue, 13 Dec 2022 - 20:48) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 13 Dec 2022 - 20:28) *
In the example of the driver at the 9 o'clock exit and another approaching the 6 o'clock exit, the rules would appear to be contradictory if both were required to give way to the other.

I can’t see where the contradictory rules are here. Neither car are circulating on the roundabout yet, so giving priority to the right is the only rule that can impact either car. Once one car is circulating, its no longer bound by either rule, so again, no contradiction.


It is however bound by, "no vehicle is to proceed past the diagram 1003.4 marking in a manner, or at a time, likely to endanger any person, or to cause the driver of another vehicle to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident." If you are on one side of the white circle and circulate round to the other that seems to be proceeding past the diagram 1003.4 marking so you need to give way to all other vehicles in doing that. So back to the original, if you are doing a U-turn on a mini-roundabout you need to do it cautiously and not at speed.

That’s part of the “priority to the right” regulation that I already mentioned.

And given that any vehicle wishing to join the mini roundabout must give way to vehicles already on the roundabout, I don’t think you can argue that someone already on that roundabout, doing a u-turn, is endangering or causing an approaching vehicle to brake - they must brake because they must give way.

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 13 Dec 2022 - 21:36) *
In the sense that *if* the driver at 9 o'clock is required to give way to the driver approaching 6 o'clock (on the basis that he is coming from the right), then it would be contradictory if the driver at 9 o'clock then gained priority by entering the roundabout and therefore circulating.

I don’t think it would be contradictory. That would simply mean that the 9 o clock driver ignored the requirement to give way to the car approaching from the right. I don’t think it’s fair to claim two rules contradict each other if they can only do so when one party doesn’t obey one of the rules.

This post has been edited by Spandex: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 - 22:34
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Tarantula
post Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 09:48
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Tue, 13 Dec 2022 - 22:37) *
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Tue, 13 Dec 2022 - 22:01) *
QUOTE (Spandex @ Tue, 13 Dec 2022 - 20:48) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 13 Dec 2022 - 20:28) *
In the example of the driver at the 9 o'clock exit and another approaching the 6 o'clock exit, the rules would appear to be contradictory if both were required to give way to the other.

I can’t see where the contradictory rules are here. Neither car are circulating on the roundabout yet, so giving priority to the right is the only rule that can impact either car. Once one car is circulating, its no longer bound by either rule, so again, no contradiction.


It is however bound by, "no vehicle is to proceed past the diagram 1003.4 marking in a manner, or at a time, likely to endanger any person, or to cause the driver of another vehicle to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident." If you are on one side of the white circle and circulate round to the other that seems to be proceeding past the diagram 1003.4 marking so you need to give way to all other vehicles in doing that. So back to the original, if you are doing a U-turn on a mini-roundabout you need to do it cautiously and not at speed.

That’s part of the “priority to the right” regulation that I already mentioned.

It is part of the regulation but is not a sub-clause of the giving priority to the right clause but rather a separate requirement that applies once the vehicle is on the roundabout.
QUOTE
And given that any vehicle wishing to join the mini roundabout must give way to vehicles already on the roundabout, I don’t think you can argue that someone already on that roundabout, doing a u-turn, is endangering or causing an approaching vehicle to brake - they must brake because they must give way.

Yes I can. The approaching vehicle should give way but that doesn't mean the vehicle doing the U-turn doesn't also have to be driven carefully. Back to the original, and not knowing the exact timings and road layout, it could be the case that both parties were at fault. The one doing the U-turn because of the clause 5© and the one entering the roundabout because of failure to give way to circulating traffic.

This post has been edited by Tarantula: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 09:48
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Spandex
post Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 11:09
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 09:48) *
It is part of the regulation but is not a sub-clause of the giving priority to the right clause but rather a separate requirement that applies once the vehicle is on the roundabout.

I don't think the intended meaning of "proceed past the diagram 1003.4 marking" is to cover all movements of the car for the duration of it circulating around the roundabout, just because it's driving on top of the marking at that time. If we follow that interpretation then we're effectively saying that vehicles on the roundabout have to give way to ALL other traffic - this would be madness.
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 09:48) *
Yes I can. The approaching vehicle should give way but that doesn't mean the vehicle doing the U-turn doesn't also have to be driven carefully. Back to the original, and not knowing the exact timings and road layout, it could be the case that both parties were at fault. The one doing the U-turn because of the clause 5© and the one entering the roundabout because of failure to give way to circulating traffic.

All vehicles should be driven carefully. I'm not suggesting doing u-turns on roundabouts should be done with gay abandon, safe in the knowledge that you have right of way - any more than I'd suggest it's ok to cruise through a junction without looking, just because you have a green light.
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Slapdash
post Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 11:46
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Very few do seem to look when passing a green light. Turning left out of a side road doesn't seem to involve many looking left either.

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Tarantula
post Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 12:55
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 11:09) *
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 09:48) *
It is part of the regulation but is not a sub-clause of the giving priority to the right clause but rather a separate requirement that applies once the vehicle is on the roundabout.

I don't think the intended meaning of "proceed past the diagram 1003.4 marking" is to cover all movements of the car for the duration of it circulating around the roundabout, just because it's driving on top of the marking at that time. If we follow that interpretation then we're effectively saying that vehicles on the roundabout have to give way to ALL other traffic - this would be madness.

No, because on a normal mini-roundabout the usual time you are past the circle is if you are turning right in which case you are leaving at the next exit and have no one to give way to (except pedestrians but you are supposed to give way to them when leaving the roundabout anyway). With a typical layout, the only time you are past the circle and not leaving at the next exit is when you are doing a U-turn.
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Spandex
post Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 14:04
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 12:55) *
No, because on a normal mini-roundabout the usual time you are past the circle is if you are turning right in which case you are leaving at the next exit and have no one to give way to (except pedestrians but you are supposed to give way to them when leaving the roundabout anyway). With a typical layout, the only time you are past the circle and not leaving at the next exit is when you are doing a U-turn.

On a mini roundabout, you are on top of the 1003.4 marking for the whole time you're on the roundabout, whether you're taking the first exit, or driving around it 10 times before leaving the way you came in.

If it's a 4 way roundabout, and you're turning right, that's two exits you have to pass and according to your definition, you'd need to give way to any traffic entering the roundabout at those two exits.

You're going to need to explain your definition of 'past' the marking, particularly how it seems to differ depending on which exit you take. At what point do you believe a vehicle is past the marking, and no longer bound by a requirement to give way as per 5c?

This post has been edited by Spandex: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 14:10
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Tarantula
post Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 15:10
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 14:04) *
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 12:55) *
No, because on a normal mini-roundabout the usual time you are past the circle is if you are turning right in which case you are leaving at the next exit and have no one to give way to (except pedestrians but you are supposed to give way to them when leaving the roundabout anyway). With a typical layout, the only time you are past the circle and not leaving at the next exit is when you are doing a U-turn.

On a mini roundabout, you are on top of the 1003.4 marking for the whole time you're on the roundabout, whether you're taking the first exit, or driving around it 10 times before leaving the way you came in.

The definition of 1003.4 marking is in the regulation. It is the white circle (it does not include the arrows) and you should only be on top of it of you are a long vehicle that can not go round it.
QUOTE
If it's a 4 way roundabout, and you're turning right, that's two exits you have to pass and according to your definition, you'd need to give way to any traffic entering the roundabout at those two exits.

You're going to need to explain your definition of 'past' the marking, particularly how it seems to differ depending on which exit you take. At what point do you believe a vehicle is past the marking, and no longer bound by a requirement to give way as per 5c?

Past. At one point your vehicle was all on one side of the marking. Now it is on the other side.

However, I now realise that I was misreading that regulation. What I expect they meant to say was "over" not "past" and it is intended to make the point that if you can't go around the circle you must give way to all other vehicles. Which would make a lot of sense.
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Spandex
post Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 15:58
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 15:10) *
QUOTE (Spandex @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 14:04) *
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 12:55) *
No, because on a normal mini-roundabout the usual time you are past the circle is if you are turning right in which case you are leaving at the next exit and have no one to give way to (except pedestrians but you are supposed to give way to them when leaving the roundabout anyway). With a typical layout, the only time you are past the circle and not leaving at the next exit is when you are doing a U-turn.

On a mini roundabout, you are on top of the 1003.4 marking for the whole time you're on the roundabout, whether you're taking the first exit, or driving around it 10 times before leaving the way you came in.

The definition of 1003.4 marking is in the regulation. It is the white circle (it does not include the arrows) and you should only be on top of it of you are a long vehicle that can not go round it.
QUOTE
If it's a 4 way roundabout, and you're turning right, that's two exits you have to pass and according to your definition, you'd need to give way to any traffic entering the roundabout at those two exits.

You're going to need to explain your definition of 'past' the marking, particularly how it seems to differ depending on which exit you take. At what point do you believe a vehicle is past the marking, and no longer bound by a requirement to give way as per 5c?

Past. At one point your vehicle was all on one side of the marking. Now it is on the other side.

However, I now realise that I was misreading that regulation. What I expect they meant to say was "over" not "past" and it is intended to make the point that if you can't go around the circle you must give way to all other vehicles. Which would make a lot of sense.

Well, with your original definition, any car that passes the furthest point of the marking has gone past it. That includes cars turning right, or doing a u-turn. At which point they no longer have to give way.

Also, although I think your suggestion for the regulation referring to vehicles passing over the top of the circle would make some sense, the text simply says:

QUOTE
no vehicle is to proceed past the diagram 1003.4 marking in a manner, or at a time, likely to endanger any person, or to cause the driver of another vehicle to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident.

And diagram 1003.4 certainly appears to include the arrows (it even gives dimensions for them). Can you point to where it says that the definition for diagram 1003.4 doesn't include the arrows?
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Tarantula
post Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 16:35
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5(b)

"left of the white circle at the centre of the marking provided for at item 5 of the sign table in Part 6 of this Schedule (“the diagram 1003.4 marking”)"

More ambiguity. Does the parenthetic remark apply to the whole of the clause starting "the white circle" or just the sub-clause starting "item 5"?
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Spandex
post Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 17:17
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 16:35) *
5(b)

"left of the white circle at the centre of the marking provided for at item 5 of the sign table in Part 6 of this Schedule (“the diagram 1003.4 marking”)"

More ambiguity. Does the parenthetic remark apply to the whole of the clause starting "the white circle" or just the sub-clause starting "item 5"?

The fact that this specifically refers to the white circle at the centre of the 1003.4 marking is a strong indication that diagram 1003.4 includes the arrows as well as the white circle. If diagram 1003.4 only described the white circle then it would make no sense to refer to the white circle at the centre of a marking that comprised solely of a white circle.

I feel like I've written 'white circle' a lot.
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mickR
post Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 17:51
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 18:17) *
I feel like I've written 'white circle' a lot.


yeah... probably time to stop now
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kc2506
post Thu, 15 Dec 2022 - 10:59
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QUOTE (mickR @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 17:51) *
QUOTE (Spandex @ Wed, 14 Dec 2022 - 18:17) *
I feel like I've written 'white circle' a lot.


yeah... probably time to stop now


Wow! Surprised this has elicited such interest.

This was the roundabout in question. Dropped pin
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3BiKjKNr4vy32h9D7

I was coming from faringdon avenue.

The other car was indicating right from straight road , heading north, and I wrongly assumed he was going to turn down faringdon avenue.

Nothing happened, btw.

Interestingly I wonder how many people here know hot to navigate this double mini roundabout. Wilsons Corner
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3tYQrhXdQR5XVEBf9

I frequently use it but nor myself or anyone else knows how to use it correctly. I suspect a u turn on this one would be near impossible

This post has been edited by kc2506: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 - 11:00
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Slapdash
post Thu, 15 Dec 2022 - 11:26
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They should be treated independently. It's impolite to enter unless you can exit. But, out of necessity, that will tend to happen quite a lot.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 15 Dec 2022 - 12:07
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https://www.google.com/maps/@51.596327,0.21...6384!8i8192
Quite a large mini island and clear sight lines so assuming I was leaving Farington and nothing to my right.....
If other vehicle had only just entered/crossed their give way line, I would be confident on entering and dropping in behind them.
If they had got to the point where they were making the right turn, I would likely wait until they had committed to Farington.
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Slapdash
post Thu, 15 Dec 2022 - 12:20
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On the other hand, the vehicle on straight road may have been a little presumptious in entering in the first place since OP was approaching and it was inevitable that they would impede the progress of OP hence didn't give way.
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mickR
post Thu, 15 Dec 2022 - 13:43
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i would say the OP did well not to just enter regardless and turn left as the 3rd party crossed their give way line as the roundabout is clearly large enough. given that this is a busy roundabout I would think it likely that everyone would jockey for entry to it. noting that there are 2 lanes at each entry, imo in the OPs case the onus is heavier on the party circulating the roundabout to be far more vigilant of others entering.
all very well the give way, to the right etc but everyone approaching or negotiating the roundabout has equal responsibility for other road users.
in the case of mini roundabouts where someone is intending on doing a "U" they should be more observant.
we have one mini roundabout at each end of our high street, it is an every day occurrence for drivers looking for a parking place to continuously do a U at each end. everyone expects a car coming up high street to do this and waits patiently (ok there's always one tw@t)

as for the OPs Brentwood double minis I know this one, they are twoindependent roundabouts. again locals know cars need to approach I a certain lane which may lead onto the next "white circle" where they will need a different lane. looks complicated but really isn't.

This post has been edited by mickR: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 - 13:46
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Spandex
post Thu, 15 Dec 2022 - 20:37
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QUOTE (kc2506 @ Thu, 15 Dec 2022 - 10:59) *
Wow! Surprised this has elicited such interest.

This was the roundabout in question. Dropped pin
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3BiKjKNr4vy32h9D7

I was coming from faringdon avenue.

The other car was indicating right from straight road , heading north, and I wrongly assumed he was going to turn down faringdon avenue.

Nothing happened, btw.

Given that the other car had enough time to arrive at the roundabout, enter it and travel almost all the way round it by the time you got to your give way line, I would say the onus was squarely on you to give way to them - which you did, but maybe not as smoothly as you’d like.

The other driver should certainly be cautious when doing a u-turn there, but only because of the likelihood of other drivers making assumptions - they’re not required to give way to you.
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mickR
post Thu, 15 Dec 2022 - 21:01
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blimey Spandy looks like we might be agreeing on something cool.gif
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