Hi,
I recently received the following PCN from TFL for contravention "31J Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited". My car is the silver one behind the green lorry.
I have attached a scanned copy of the Notice.
20180110130440104.pdf ( 136.9K )
: 166
As you can see from the https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=98DFACF99F71C61C&resid=98DFACF99F71C61C%211373&authkey=AIX0CCoOsna9eP8 (might take a moment to display when the link is clicked) when I entered the box junction the road ahead was clear, the lorry was driving straight ahead, (at the lights it was signalling to go right at the roundabout) it then decided to turn its wheels to the left and took the space I was due to drive into. Looking at the video, I should have slowly navigated my way to the left (can't believe I did not do that). It is only my back wheels that are on the box junction (although it seems that is enough to incur a penalty) and I am not actually causing traffic problems, so I feel very harshly done by.
I have looked on the forums and came across the following points mentioned by @stamfordman
I wish to appeal the PCN based on the following information:
- My understanding is that if another vehicle cuts across to take my exit space and this cannot have been foreseen by me the contravention does not occur. In this case, your video shows the green truck drove across my line and, unsure of its intention, I stopped as I felt I had no choice but to let it in.
- In any case, I also understand that the contravention does not occur if my exit was not blocked by stationary vehicles. In this case, the video shows I then had space to the front and left and was not in fact blocked by a stationary vehicle. This is much easier to appreciate from your camera than it was at the time for me, being low down in my car.
- And also from the video, the stop was minimal and in the bounds of 'de minimis'.
On these grounds I would ask you to please cancel the PCN.
I would really appreciate any advice as I do feel rather wronged on this occasion.
Thank you in advance.
@cp8759 Thank you for your reply - do think it is futile to appeal?
I agree. Your exit should be clear before you enter the box and it wasn't. There's no more to it than that.
I'm driving the silver car and when I entered the traffic was flowing - at the lights the HGV was signalling to go right at the round about, therefore the space ahead of me was free - does that not count?
The PCN has four pages, we need to see all them, leave in date time and location we need to see them. TfL PCN's are historically faulty so could be an avenue there
@PASTMYBEST Thank you - I shall re-scan and update this afternoon.
Reasonable chance of de minimis as more than half of car out of a large box.
Why you didn't just drive to the left only you know... although your point about having a different view to the camera is one I've often made.
Also, I would say the camera view of this box is not good enough to show traffic positions.
It seems to me the camera view is flawed as it doesn't show the road beyond the crossing apart from a couple of metres so not showing whether a space is available or not. Also there is no view of vehicles before they enter the box. In addition, the contravention could be considered de minimis. No obstruction to other traffic has occurred at all, and the vehicle is only partly in the box. However such is the greed of TfL for the dosh they will invariably reject an appeal, thus forcing the OP to take the matter to adjudication. Probably a bit of a gamble, at least the discount gives certainty.
All four PCN pages added.
Any thoughts on errors on the PCN?
Thank you.
@PASTMYBEST Thank you for taking the time to look - it is much appreciated.
In brief - I shall go with the following arguments:
1. When entering the road beyond the box junction was not blocked.
2. The lorry was signalling to go right but then turned into my lane.
3. Camera view is flawed.
4. The ‘de minimus’ argument.
Of course, I shall flesh out the arguments.
If you can think of any other point I would be most grateful.
Thank you.
@Incandescent @PASTMYBEST @stanfordman
Is there any chance this box junction does not conform to regulation?
It has five sides? Is this allowed?
Not that i can see, the 2016 regulations are very relaxed as to design, What matters is that you know its a box junction
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Target+Roundabout,+Northolt+UB5+5AW/@51.5432542,-0.3781455,206m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x48766d332f188997:0xb3ee588718ea193e!8m2!3d51.5426979!4d-0.3770913
@PASTMYBEST - Ok, thank you - thought it was worth asking.
Found this on the web (document called "300324 LBHF BOX JUNCTION ENFORCEMENT GUIDELINES ver 3.doc") - Does this only apply to the London borough of Hammersmith and Fulham?
There was a section in there which might possibly help with the "de minimus" argument:
"9. On large type box junctions, cars and vans with less than 50% of their length over the box should have discretion applied if they are not an obstruction. On smaller box junctions 25%”grace” would apply as long as they are not an obstruction. An attached list shows which boxes the 50% or 25% rule should be applied to. Some very small/special case box junctions should have 0% discretion. Decisions on Lorries and Buses would be left down to how much of problem they would cause."
Any thoughts?
Thank you.
Yes I sometimes quote that doc - it's from 2007 but gives insight into one council's thinking. It does not apply in any formal sense even in H&F but gives some ammunition.
@stamforman Thank you.
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