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TFL Loading Only Bay - 10 minutes, Camera PCN received on loading only bay
Blueberry84
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 11:34
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Hi,

I received a PCN through the post for parking in a red route loading only bay, marked "No Stopping At Any Time Except 7am-4pm, Loading Only max 20 mins".

The I had parked here between 15:39 and 15:49 according to the response of my appeal.

I had gone to pay for and pick up pre-ordered supplies but the appeal was rejected on the grounds that "during this time, no activity was seen that could be construed as loading or unloading". My loading was at the end, and only took 1 trip but the items were heavy.

My appeal was on the grounds that I was picking up pre-ordered supplies (loading only took place at the end, after 10 minutes). As they stated in their response "Legislation does not set out a universal definition of loading and unloading", so it sounds like they have taken it on themselves to just fine anybody they want.

I am not sure what more I can say to support my case than I already have.

My question is - is this worth an appeal to the adjudicator? What more could I add than I have already said?

Just to note, I took too long to put this up, and unfortunately I have only 2 more days at the discounted rate - I think...

Thank you!
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post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 11:34
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DancingDad
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 11:56
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Very quick first thoughts on what you have said, you were loading and should win it.

But please can we see the PCN, your challenge and their rejection ?

Basics on loading is that is must be needed, ie heavy goods.
Must be parked knowing you were collecting them, ie pre-ordered.
Must only be time for the process but no longer. Paperwork, payment, waiting for goods to be found all come into the process, it is not only the part where you stuff them into the boot.
Many enforcement authorities work on this No Activity seen, that is a reason to issue a PCN but not a good one to continue enforcement.
But it does mean you have to show evidence of what you were doing and justify the time taken.
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DastardlyDick
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 12:58
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As DancingDad says, you have every chance of winning this one.
Ideally, what you need is evidence of pre-ordering - if it was done online, then presumably the supplier sent you a confirmation email?
That, together with a collection note/invoice/receipt issued when you collected should be enough to satisfy TfL.
You are entitled to the full 20 minutes allowed, and that includes (as DD also said) time for the goods to be taken out of stock, checked (correct goods, quantity etc) and paid for.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 13:06
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QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 12:58) *
.....You are entitled to the full 20 minutes allowed, and that includes (as DD also said) time for the goods to be taken out of stock, checked (correct goods, quantity etc) and paid for.


Could I just rephrase that a little please DD.
You are allowed up to the 20 minutes but entitled to no longer then the process actually takes.
IE you cannot park, spend 5 minutes loading then stay for the remaining 15.

(Which I know you know but people often confuse the two.)
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DastardlyDick
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 14:51
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 13:06) *
QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 12:58) *
.....You are entitled to the full 20 minutes allowed, and that includes (as DD also said) time for the goods to be taken out of stock, checked (correct goods, quantity etc) and paid for.


Could I just rephrase that a little please DD.
You are allowed up to the 20 minutes but entitled to no longer then the process actually takes.
IE you cannot park, spend 5 minutes loading then stay for the remaining 15.

(Which I know you know but people often confuse the two.)


Yes, I could have phrased that better - thank you.
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Blueberry84
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 21:03
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Thanks for your responses.

I was collecting paint - so definitely justified in using a car, and I asked for them to make it over the phone but I have no evidence of this unfortunately. I just wanted it to be ready when I got there.

I didn't think too much of the timing, they had a few people before me to deal with so I had to queue up, but I didn't wait around apart from that. Again, I have no evidence of this.

Happy to send my PCN & rejection - but my appeal doesn't seem to be on the site and I have not got a backup of it!

I know - it does seem I don't have much information to back up my case!!

One more thing. The letter is dated 11th Feb, so do I have until 25th midnight to make payment at the discounted rate?

This post has been edited by Blueberry84: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 21:07
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cp8759
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 23:39
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You need to show us the documents, rather than describing them to us. Upload to imgur.com or similar and post a link, or use the BB codes to post directly on here.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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DancingDad
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 10:06
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You have evidence in the form of a receipt, I assume you got one.
If lost, card payment?
Or can you get one from supplier ?

Basic is without some evidence it all comes down to credibility in front of an adjudicator.
For instance, why would a paint supplier make up a special paint colour on a phone call.... regular customer, deposit paid, what ?
Queues and the like happen.... should not be an issue unless you say something stupid like spent five minutes discussing last night's match.
Proof of purchase.... is rather basic ?

Have you seen the video BTW, if not request it.
Better now to see if it shows nothing except the vehicle, you buckling at the knees with 50 ltres of paint or you with a tester pot and munching a kebab.


And can we see some documents please

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 10:16
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hcandersen
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 13:03
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OP, you are making it nearly impossble to give balanced advice because we've not seen any docs.

For all I know there could be a glaring procedural error which we could exploit which at present could be set against very flimsy and unsupported statements on your part that you were loading.

Post the docs. And then start at the beginning:

On *** I parked at the location in order to collect pre-ordered items from ****. These were ordered by telephone, our arrangement being that the non-standard paint colour would be mixed by them in the quantities specified and that I would collect and pay at ****.

Collection and payment entailed *** which I estimate took ****.

So far, so good?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 14:06
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