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Advice needed - Thought my car was stolen but it was towed by council! (taxed and insured), Apparently will be destroyed tomorrow!
Spacejam_2000ad
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 10:43
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Hi guys,

Some urgent help on this is needed, any advice you can give would be much appreciated. I will tell the whole story below so sorry if I bore anyone but I want to make sure to include all details.

I usually park my car on a road near my house (3 minute walk) in London E17 - (see letter) where there are no parking restrictions. On Friday 23rd August I had gone to pick up my car and found I had been the victim of theft. Both wheels on the road side had been stolen, and the driver's side window had been smashed in, and my stereo had been taken.

I reported the incident to my insurers on that night but did not report it to the police. I assumed that reporting to insurance would be enough for me as I didn't expect the police would be able to do much about the stolen parts (last I had driven the car was on the 19th August so not sure when the theft happened).

I sourced some new wheels on eBay, and it took until Sat 7th September to collect them and for my dad to be free to help bring them over to the car. I had been periodically checking on the car at this point (every 2 or so days). I had also covered the driver's side window to protect it from rain.

On 7th August, I came with the new wheels to install on the car and was planning to move it to private parking at work temporarily until I sourced a new window. When we arrived on the 7th the car was gone.

I assumed at first that it must have been abandoned, but over the last couple weeks I had been to visit the car and there was no notice attached to the vehicle to warn me of this. My car is taxed and insured. The car is registered to my parents address, but I have access to the mail there and my parents always let me know if letters arrive. Anyhow, I contacted the police and the DVLA and they had no record of my car being towed, so I reported the car as stolen.

Fast forward a week with 4 VW Bora wheels sitting in my back garden and no car to put them on, I receive a call from my mum who has received this letter in the mail (this is on the 14th September). In the photograph an extra wheel has been stolen which is upsetting as I feel it was picked apart by vultures. Please note that before this the car was in generally good nick and was clean. There are many other vehicles parked on this road, not abandoned.

I am very confused (and very annoyed) that this could happen with no notice to me at all. The letter was dated the 12th September, at least 5 days after I found that my vehicle had been taken. There was no notice on the vehicle. Again I state my car is taxed and fully insured. Yes, the car looked in a very sorry state but it was for less than two weeks and how am I meant to fix my own vehicle if as soon as someone vandalizes it it is swept off the road and I am given a bill?!

I am guessing that I will need to call up the tow company and pay to get my car back, but I really can't afford to pay the (uncertain how much) charge if I am not going to be able to get it back. I need to call them up later today, but any help and advice before I make the call in a couple of hours would be really appreciated.

Many thanks

This post has been edited by Spacejam_2000ad: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 10:54
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post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 10:43
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Incandescent
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 10:59
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If it was taxed and insured, how can the council consider it abandoned ? They can obtain your name and address from the DVLA and contact you, so why didn't they. It would have been best to contact the police as soon as you found the wheels had gone, but now you need to find out what the council want to release the vehicle. London councils have form on this, and a few years ago, towed a £20k vehicle claiming it was abandoned ! They pretty soon had to eat humble pie and compensate the owner. You need to make a formal complaint to the council on this one, assuming it WAS taxed and insured.
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Spacejam_2000ad
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 11:01
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Yes 100% the car was taxed and insured (In fact it still is now). Thanks, I am calling the council number on the letter now but it is a bit of a robo-voice maze.
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 11:42
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OP----your "bill" to date is about £1000 to collect from the pound. Is the vehicle worth that much?
Mick
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Spacejam_2000ad
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 12:25
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Mad Mick - no, the vehicle is worth nowhere near that much. Monetary value isn't the only value of a car though - it is our only vehicle, and with my salary we simply cannot afford to just let it go to some council blunder and buy another.

I'm asking for the advice of people with experience in this matter - if it's definite that the council are in the wrong here and I will be reimbursed, then I will pay up-front on a credit card to get my car back. As I said in my first post, I cannot afford to pay if it's not a certainty that I will get the money back, and the value of the car is of course a factor in that.

Edit: I have called up Walthamstow council, and the Neighbourhood team doesn't have a direct line and the person involved with my case is on holiday until the 18th. Someone else at Walthamstow is investigating and is hopefully going to call me back with news.

This post has been edited by Spacejam_2000ad: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 12:27
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Neil B
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 13:02
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Relevant legislation but a plethora of subsequent amendments to cross link, takes an age.

Just reading the bare original gives some indication they may not be allowed to destroy it at least.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/3/contents


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 13:22
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The letter dated 12 Sept states that they believe that it is such as condition that it should be destroyed.

The Act states:

(5)[F13Where in pursuance of this section a local authority propose to remove a vehicle which in their opinion is in such a condition that it ought to be destroyed they shall, not less than the prescribed period before removing it, cause to be affixed to the vehicle a notice stating that the authority propose to remove it for destruction on the expiration of that period.]


The vehicle did not deteriorate in their care over the short period between removal and 12 Sept. such that it wasn't in a condition to be destroyed, but is now.

Therefore they should have placed a notice.

The OP's evidence and the photo tell us that no such notice was given.

OP, why have you obscured part of their letter? Pl repost the full letter.

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stamfordman
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 13:30
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It's odd that wheels have been stolen - those days are mostly gone now as they are almost worthless unless they are fancy alloys.

I expect there was a notice on the car that was removed by someone.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 13:38
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In which case they would have a photo in their records.

Simple for them to establish when challenged. But as none in the photo on the day of removal, then prima facie no notice was given.
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Spacejam_2000ad
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 14:55
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@hcanderson I have obscured only my name, my address, ref no. and the registration of my vehicle.

So the officer who sent the letter is on holiday, and I've been told 2 different stories by Waltham forest council-
1: that Redcorn came to collect on the 3rd of september that my car was not there
2: when Redcorn came to collect on the 3rd September, they could not tow as the car had no wheels. They came later in the week and it was gone.

I am still confused at how this all matches up and why I was sent a letter on the 12th Sept, no notice given before this letter, and now my car's status is once again stolen.

Something feels fishy here but I feel powerless to do anything about it. Regardless I suspect it has moved beyond the scope of the help you all can offer me here at pepipoo.

@stamfordman yes, especially as they were not alloys but steelies. Very frustrating, if I could have sourced replacement wheels faster the original theft would have cost me less than £200 to replace window, wheels and stereo.

This post has been edited by Spacejam_2000ad: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 14:55
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Incandescent
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 16:08
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QUOTE
The letter dated 12 Sept states that they believe that it is such as condition that it should be destroyed.


This for a vehicle that is taxed and insured and has presumably a current MOT certificate. I think they would have difficulty justifying this stance in front of the LG Ombudsman if it got that far.
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Neil B
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 16:32
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 14:22) *
(5)[F13Where in pursuance of this section a local authority propose to remove a vehicle which in their opinion is in such a condition that it ought to be destroyed they shall, not less than the prescribed period before removing it, cause to be affixed to the vehicle a notice stating that the authority propose to remove it for destruction on the expiration of that period.][/i]

Therefore they should have placed a notice.

No longer required ---- but they claim to have anyway.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 14:22) *
The OP's evidence and the photo tell us that no such notice was given.

No they don't. The dates in both the OP's statement and on the pics negate your statement.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 16:42
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I don't see a problem with claiming the money back. I've had abandoned cars towed before, and there are various loopholes the council must go through to do so lawfully. One of the requirements it to affix a notice and the council admits a notice was issued on 2 September and was not due to expire before 17 September 2019. If the council had the vehicle removed before the notice had expired, the removal is unlawful.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Neil B
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 16:49
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Spacejam.

Having been through the same myself I believe this may boil down to >

Whether the council had reason to believe the vehicle was abandoned
and
that it was in such a condition that it should be destroyed.

--
Following that -
Would it have been reasonable to notify you earlier? I think so.

Whatever the ultimate outcome you need, as you have been doing, to get this to the attention of
appropriate officers, get an accurate account of events and a hold on destruction while you do that.
That the relevant officer is on holiday is not an acceptable excuse.

I suggest you ask the appropriate councillor to ensure prompt attention is given to the matter (by council officers)
and that they engage with you.

cllr.clyde.loakes@walthamforest.gov.uk



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 17:08
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@Neil B:
No they don't. The dates in both the OP's statement and on the pics negate your statement.

How so?

The only photos have been posted by the OP and they are next to the letter. I therefore presume reasonably that they are related i.e. they represent the car on or near the day it was removed. In addition the OP has repeatedly stated that there was no notice posted on the car!

OP, contrary to the council's stance this has nothing to do with whoever removed the vehicle: if the council removed it unlawfully then there is no charge to be paid. So IN WRITING tell them that:

The car was not abandoned as any contact with the owner would have revealed;
No notice was placed on the car at any stage.
The car was removed unlawfully i.e. without lawful reason and/or without complying with prescribed procedure.
The car is taxed until ** and insured until ***.

The council may not destroy the vehicle and must make arrangements with you for it to be delivered: it is roadworthy and you will fit the required wheels. If the council destroy the vehicle then you will register a formal complaint, ultimately referring the matter to the LGO if necessary.

By return they must provide the following:
Copies of the removal notices and when these were affixed to the vehicle/posted to the registered keeper's address.


This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 17:18
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stamfordman
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 17:33
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 17:42) *
If the council had the vehicle removed before the notice had expired, the removal is unlawful.


The notice period does not apply to cars abandoned on the roadway.

The council was well within its rights to remove a car that could have been subject to more vandalism and they have found the owner and given notice of destruction.

Neil has given the best course of action if the OP wants to try and retrieve the car and not pay costs as paying those is clearly not worth it.
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 19:48
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Even at this late stage it might be worthwhile informing the police and getting a crime reference number. The Council has formed an opinion that the vehicle was abandoned this must be contested.
Mick
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Neil B
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 00:06
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QUOTE (Spacejam_2000ad @ Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 15:55) *
Regardless I suspect it has moved beyond the scope of the help you all can offer me here at pepipoo.

A little unfair since you only posted a few hours ago? Have you read the linked legislation and cross referenced
the relevant amendments.? Would the volunteer members here have had time to?
Who else do do you suggest might have answers in such a timescale?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Spacejam_2000ad
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 09:34
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Edit: double post

This post has been edited by Spacejam_2000ad: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 10:29
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Spacejam_2000ad
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 09:46
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 01:06) *
QUOTE (Spacejam_2000ad @ Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 15:55) *
Regardless I suspect it has moved beyond the scope of the help you all can offer me here at pepipoo.

A little unfair since you only posted a few hours ago? Have you read the linked legislation and cross referenced
the relevant amendments.? Would the volunteer members here have had time to?
Who else do do you suggest might have answers in such a timescale?


@Neil B - I meant no disrespect, I very much appreciated your advice and that of everyone else in this thread, and especially in such a short timescale. What I meant was that Walthamstow and Redcorn say they don't have my car - so there is no longer a car to pick up and there are no longer any fines to pay.

I think I wasn't clear in my last post - Walthamstow council have told me this report from Redcorn - when they went to tow the car, it wasn't there. They tell me it must have been stolen before they arrived (reported to them on the 2nd and they went to collect on the 3rd). To me this smells fishy and when googling Redcorn they don't seem to have a great track record with the cars they tow for abandonment, but at the end of the day I have no proof the company had anything to do with my car going missing.

Walthamstow have promised me they will get back to me with a full account and I've been given a ref number to give to the police. I don't think there's much more I can do.

Again thanks to all who replied, I think if the car was still in the picture, with your advice I would have had a very good chance of getting it back and my money back also.
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