PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

PCN Contravention 27 - Hillingdon Council
jayj9
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 19:20
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Member No.: 105,459



Hi everyone

Can I please have your opinions about what to do for this PCN.

I have attached pictures below showing the PCN and the way my car was parked.

I admit that I was slightly over the dropped kerb edge, but as I was not obstructing the drive way I thought this would be fine as there was no white line by the drop of the curb indicating where it started and finished.

Also on the PCN it has two locations. I know that they are round the corner from each other but they are not the same place so I don’t know if that can be used in an appeal.

I take full knowledge that I may be in the wrong and if So I am sorry and will pay the fine but I just didn’t see a problem parking there.

Please give me your opinions on the matter and what you all think I should do.

Thanks jayj9

EDIT:
I’ve now added all the pictures onto this post below And attached the PCN.

Pictures I took.
https://ibb.co/B3Zd4Dg
https://ibb.co/djSvrtk
https://ibb.co/jrf1jdw
https://ibb.co/BLqrsVp
https://ibb.co/H2GPv9P
https://ibb.co/9qc1Y9L
https://ibb.co/wzhwD2m
https://ibb.co/HDP4VC4

Council pictures they took.

https://ibb.co/5Kp0msY
https://ibb.co/VBK0qsn
https://ibb.co/hfw0zLx
https://ibb.co/s2hzV32
https://ibb.co/wY8KVcH
https://ibb.co/XLxBk8x
https://ibb.co/WWVxfvH


This post has been edited by jayj9: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 15:23
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
5 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 > »   
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 39)
Advertisement
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 19:20
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 21:28
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



This was to be expected, but it's hard to see how you could lose if you stick with it. I would wait for the Notice to Owner.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jayj9
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 21:39
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Member No.: 105,459



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 21:28) *
This was to be expected, but it's hard to see how you could lose if you stick with it. I would wait for the Notice to Owner.


You expected this?? Why? I didn’t, I thought they would accept straight away. Do they normally do this? And what is notice to owner? And what are the next steps. Sorry for so many questions.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 21:49
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (jayj9 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 21:39) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 21:28) *
This was to be expected, but it's hard to see how you could lose if you stick with it. I would wait for the Notice to Owner.


You expected this?? Why? I didn’t, I thought they would accept straight away. Do they normally do this? And what is notice to owner? And what are the next steps. Sorry for so many questions.

Sadly 99% of informal representations are rejected, because if they reject they get to pocket your money. Most challenges at the Notice to Owner stage are also rejected, pretty much for the same reason. You only get a fair hearing when you appeal to the tribunal, because the tribunal adjudicator

1) Is legally trained and isn't making it up as he goes along, and
2) Has no financial interest in the case, he gets paid the same whether you win or lose.

The process is explained here: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process

The appeal process is explained here: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appe...ocess-explained


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John U.K.
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:03
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,308
Joined: 9 May 2014
Member No.: 70,515



QUOTE
You expected this?? Why? I didn’t, I thought they would accept straight away. Do they normally do this? And what is notice to owner? And what are the next steps. Sorry for so many questions.


For most PCNs, there are three stages:
Informal challenge to Council in response to the PCN - if rejected, then
Formal representation to Council in response to the NtO - if rejected, then
Appeal to an independent adjudicator at tribunal.

In almost all Councils, the informals are considered by the lowest tier of clerks, who have a vast collection of computer generated rejection templates at their disposal. (Over enthusiasm in using a stock rejection can lead to an additional ground for appeal -'Failure to Consider'.) a challenge within the discount period will normal see a rejection accompanied by a re-offer of the discount.
Formal reps are considered by the next tier up, and a rejection may see the discount re-offered, especially if the reps seem strong.
IF an appeal is made to the tribunal, it will be considered by the next level up again, and may lead to the Council deciding not to contest. The discount is lost IF an appeal top the tribunal is unsuccessful.

Councils rely on motorists coughing up at a discount, and can bear the risk of a small percentage of total PCNs being successfully appealed.
in tyhe event of an appeal to and adjudicator
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jayj9
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:21
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Member No.: 105,459



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (jayj9 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 21:39) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 21:28) *
This was to be expected, but it's hard to see how you could lose if you stick with it. I would wait for the Notice to Owner.


You expected this?? Why? I didn’t, I thought they would accept straight away. Do they normally do this? And what is notice to owner? And what are the next steps. Sorry for so many questions.

Sadly 99% of informal representations are rejected, because if they reject they get to pocket your money. Most challenges at the Notice to Owner stage are also rejected, pretty much for the same reason. You only get a fair hearing when you appeal to the tribunal, because the tribunal adjudicator

1) Is legally trained and isn't making it up as he goes along, and
2) Has no financial interest in the case, he gets paid the same whether you win or lose.

The process is explained here: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process

The appeal process is explained here: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appe...ocess-explained



QUOTE (John U.K. @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:03) *
QUOTE
You expected this?? Why? I didn’t, I thought they would accept straight away. Do they normally do this? And what is notice to owner? And what are the next steps. Sorry for so many questions.


For most PCNs, there are three stages:
Informal challenge to Council in response to the PCN - if rejected, then
Formal representation to Council in response to the NtO - if rejected, then
Appeal to an independent adjudicator at tribunal.

In almost all Councils, the informals are considered by the lowest tier of clerks, who have a vast collection of computer generated rejection templates at their disposal. (Over enthusiasm in using a stock rejection can lead to an additional ground for appeal -'Failure to Consider'.) a challenge within the discount period will normal see a rejection accompanied by a re-offer of the discount.
Formal reps are considered by the next tier up, and a rejection may see the discount re-offered, especially if the reps seem strong.
IF an appeal is made to the tribunal, it will be considered by the next level up again, and may lead to the Council deciding not to contest. The discount is lost IF an appeal top the tribunal is unsuccessful.

Councils rely on motorists coughing up at a discount, and can bear the risk of a small percentage of total PCNs being successfully appealed.
in tyhe event of an appeal to and adjudicator


Alright thank you both for your advice and time.

I’m assuming my next step is to either pay up, or prepare an appeal when the NtO arrives, and then prepare an appeal for the tribunal. Can I use the same appeal I used for the informal appeal? Or do I need to do a new one? Also if I lost the tribunal would there be any extra costs similar to court costs? Or anything.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:45
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (jayj9 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:21) *
I’m assuming my next step is to either pay up, or prepare an appeal when the NtO arrives, and then prepare an appeal for the tribunal. Can I use the same appeal I used for the informal appeal? Or do I need to do a new one? Also if I lost the tribunal would there be any extra costs similar to court costs? Or anything.

The next step is wait for the NtO, and then we'll help you draft a more substantive challenge. If that is rejected, we'll help you with an appeal to the tribunal. Even if you lose, there are no costs, the most you can pay is the full penalty amount of £110 providing you don't miss any of the deadlines.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:11
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



The rejection is gibberish nonsense. OP - wait for the NTO. I cannot see you losing this. Are you the registered keeper?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jayj9
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 12:17
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Member No.: 105,459



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:45) *
QUOTE (jayj9 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:21) *
I’m assuming my next step is to either pay up, or prepare an appeal when the NtO arrives, and then prepare an appeal for the tribunal. Can I use the same appeal I used for the informal appeal? Or do I need to do a new one? Also if I lost the tribunal would there be any extra costs similar to court costs? Or anything.

The next step is wait for the NtO, and then we'll help you draft a more substantive challenge. If that is rejected, we'll help you with an appeal to the tribunal. Even if you lose, there are no costs, the most you can pay is the full penalty amount of £110 providing you don't miss any of the deadlines.



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:11) *
The rejection is gibberish nonsense. OP - wait for the NTO. I cannot see you losing this. Are you the registered keeper?


Alright thank you both? How long does it normally take for the NtO to arrive I’m under the assumption that it will be after the 14 day period of the discount. And yes I am the registered owner.

Thanks again I will let you know when the NtO arrives.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 14:58
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



The NTO can be served after the 28 period for paying the PCN has ended or after the period set in the rejection letter, which is also 28 days. It must be served within 6 months of the contravention date. So you won't get anything for a month now.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 15:00
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jayj9
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 19:32
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Member No.: 105,459



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 14:58) *
The NTO can be served after the 28 period for paying the PCN has ended or after the period set in the rejection letter, which is also 28 days. It must be served within 6 months of the contravention date. So you won't get anything for a month now.


Okay I understand now. I will wait until it arrives then let you all know. Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 22:33
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,915
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



OK, you're the registered owner, but is your V5 up-to-date ? The Notice to Owner and all subsequent documents will be sent to the V5 address.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jayj9
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 15:03
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Member No.: 105,459



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 22:33) *
OK, you're the registered owner, but is your V5 up-to-date ? The Notice to Owner and all subsequent documents will be sent to the V5 address.


Yeah it’s all up to date 👍. Address and car are all correct. Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jayj9
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 12:17
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Member No.: 105,459



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:45) *
QUOTE (jayj9 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:21) *
I’m assuming my next step is to either pay up, or prepare an appeal when the NtO arrives, and then prepare an appeal for the tribunal. Can I use the same appeal I used for the informal appeal? Or do I need to do a new one? Also if I lost the tribunal would there be any extra costs similar to court costs? Or anything.

The next step is wait for the NtO, and then we'll help you draft a more substantive challenge. If that is rejected, we'll help you with an appeal to the tribunal. Even if you lose, there are no costs, the most you can pay is the full penalty amount of £110 providing you don't miss any of the deadlines.



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:11) *
The rejection is gibberish nonsense. OP - wait for the NTO. I cannot see you losing this. Are you the registered keeper?


The Nto has finally arrived. I’ve attached the link below with pictures of the Nto.

https://ibb.co/wzZp6Y8
https://ibb.co/hsk2FsT



This post has been edited by jayj9: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 12:19
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 14:06
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Plenty of time to work up this one - you weren't partially obstructing anything so this should be thrown back at them in restating the statutory grounds for when a contravention does apply.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 14:06
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 19:19
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Post a draft of your representation. The central point is very simple, i.e. that the dropped kerb you were adjacent to leads only to a fence, and therefore has not been lowered for one of the statutory purposes under TMA section 86.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jayj9
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 18:01
Post #36


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Member No.: 105,459



Alright great I will draft it up and post it for this weekend.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jayj9
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 13:41
Post #37


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Member No.: 105,459



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 14:06) *
Plenty of time to work up this one - you weren't partially obstructing anything so this should be thrown back at them in restating the statutory grounds for when a contravention does apply.



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 19:19) *
Post a draft of your representation. The central point is very simple, i.e. that the dropped kerb you were adjacent to leads only to a fence, and therefore has not been lowered for one of the statutory purposes under TMA section 86.


I have used the draft from earlier and made a few corrections.

Draft:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to appeal against the Penalty Charge Notices (PCN) dated 28/10/19 (PCN NUMBER) as I believe that the alleged contravention (code 27) did not occur.

I believe that contravention did not occur as the “dropped footway” (or dropped kerb) in question does not meet any of the statutory tests which prove the contravention.

(i) assisting pedestrians crossing the carriageway;

The location of this dropped kerb sits in the middle of a short section of a carriageway and this is an unnecessary extension of a driveway.
It is inconceivable that the purpose of installing it was to assist pedestrians to cross the carriageway as there would be no beneficial purpose in crossing at this Dropped Kerb especially when there is no dropped kerb opposite on the other side of the road. (I will show image of the kerb)

(ii) assisting cyclists entering or leaving the carriageway;

There are no cycle paths or tracks which adjoin this lowered footway, neither is there a complementary lowered footway at this location to assist cyclists traverse the footway at this point. Given that cycling on the footway is not only dangerous but unlawful, the purpose of this lowered footway also cannot have been to facilitate an exit for cyclists travelling on the longitudinal aspect of the footway.

(iii) assisting vehicles entering or leaving the carriageway across the footway, cycle track or verge;
This is clearly not the purpose of this part of the dropped kerb. as there is a solid fence and tree directly in behind the dropped kerb which clearly is not intended for vehicular movement and there is a continuation of the dropped kerb behind my car which is meant for a driveway which I was not obstructing at the time as shown in the photo (Show the photo that the parking inspector took)

I also believe the following points also need to be taken into consideration as part of this appeal
1) There is a solid fence and tree right behind the dropped kerb where I was parked.
2) No signage indicating a dropped kerb, another way to have made this clear that this isn’t a spot to be parked in is to erect signage,
3) Lack of proper road markings indicating a dropped kerb, as a dropped kerb to be defined as a dropped kerb the crossing places must be clearly marked with road Markings.
In this appeal I have made it clear why I consider the contravention did not occur,

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

(my name)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 15:06
Post #38


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



I'll redo this for you later - better to be shorter, more assertive and reference their rejection letter. Also, the points about signage and road markings are not relevant.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 17:16
Post #39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



I would send this - see what others say first. Keep in short and assertive.

Dear parking,

I was disappointed to receive your rejection to my challenge to the alleged contravention of "parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway". I now formally repeat that the contravention did not occur.

You state that, according to your photos, my car was "partially obstructing the dropped footway". But as you know, a contravention for code 27 only arises in three situations and none of these apply to where my car was parked. It is clear from your own pictures that my car was by a part of the kerb adjacent to only a fence and a tree, and not to a vehicle driveway, pedestrian crossing or cycle track, which are the three cases for enforcing code 27 set out in law.

I can only assume that you did not review your evidence in detail and I urge you to do so and cancel this PCN at once.

yours

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 17:17
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jayj9
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 21:35
Post #40


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Member No.: 105,459



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 15:06) *
I'll redo this for you later - better to be shorter, more assertive and reference their rejection letter. Also, the points about signage and road markings are not relevant.



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 17:16) *
I would send this - see what others say first. Keep in short and assertive.

Dear parking,

I was disappointed to receive your rejection to my challenge to the alleged contravention of "parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway". I now formally repeat that the contravention did not occur.

You state that, according to your photos, my car was "partially obstructing the dropped footway". But as you know, a contravention for code 27 only arises in three situations and none of these apply to where my car was parked. It is clear from your own pictures that my car was by a part of the kerb adjacent to only a fence and a tree, and not to a vehicle driveway, pedestrian crossing or cycle track, which are the three cases for enforcing code 27 set out in law.

I can only assume that you did not review your evidence in detail and I urge you to do so and cancel this PCN at once.

yours


Ahh. Yeah I am a bit of an amateur with the appeal writing. Thank you so much for writing up the draft. I will send it off tomorrow.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

5 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 15:36
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here