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Notice of Reject of formal rep received after over 56 days, Council not being responsive
painedByPCNs
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 17:06
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Hi All,
Sorry I'm a bit of a newbie here (posted once years ago), good to be back.

I've seen quite a few posts online about this but still non the wiser (could be because I have worked through lunch today).

I had a PCN issued a while back, for which I have sent an email appeal (yes a bit unusual but that was the appeal process) at 16:13 on September 13th. I later followed that with another email on 28th september saying that I haven't received confirmation for my previous email (and still didn't get an email confirmation).
yesterday (13nov), I received a letter (Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations) dated 11Nov2019 (so 3 calendar days after 56 days rule).

I thought my representation was informal, but the letter I received clearly says "NOTICE OF REJECTION OF FORMAL REPRESENTATION".

question is, does the fact that they're a few days late invalidate the ticket, and if so, how do I proceed to avoid issues?

the letter does state that I still have 14 days from the date of the notice to pay the discounted amount, so will need to act within a week or so now.


this is with ealing council so suspect it would be very difficult to actually find someone there to talk to about this.
Thanks in advance

Contravention Date 29Aug19
Date of PCN: 6sep19
(I couldn't view video so sent an email stating that on 9sep19 for which i received an automated confirmation but no actual response)
sent my representation on 13sep after being able to see video/footage (no receipt confirmation)
sent email asking for confirmation of receipt (no response).
Notice of Rejection of formal representation dated 11Nov19 received 13Nov19

attached PCN details together with notice Notice. not sure if emails i sent (with the automated confirmation i received) are useful to attach?

Thanks


PS. I couldn't attach as the attachment editor says I have used 1.85MB of 1.95MB before I have attached anything? what am I doing wrong here?
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post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 17:06
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stamfordman
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 17:08
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Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

pdfs on google docs etc

Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 17:08
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Neil B
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 17:30
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What is the PCN for?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 19:20
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QUOTE (painedByPCNs @ Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 17:06) *
PS. I couldn't attach as the attachment editor says I have used 1.85MB of 1.95MB before I have attached anything? what am I doing wrong here?

Put the images on an external site like imgur.com, google drive, dropbox or similar.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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painedByPCNs
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 21:15
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Thanks guys
images here:
https://ibb.co/ysJ7wKC
https://ibb.co/CbPvnJT
https://ibb.co/610pTP9

sorry took me time to respond!
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Neil B
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 21:22
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Can't see em on my phone but make out its moving traffic.
There is no 56 day limit.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 21:31
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Post the rest of the rejection letter, and also a copy of your representations.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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painedByPCNs
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 23:18
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Rest of rejection notice
https://ibb.co/QCKML51
https://ibb.co/60DsLbQ
https://ibb.co/6rzW5Cn
https://ibb.co/z8xypWT
https://ibb.co/HqcsZVY


My challenge email pasted below (subject is PCN number)

Vehicle registration

Hi
I have finally been able to view the footage.

I couldn't recall making any contravention knowingly and looking at the images helped explain why.

The signage is placed on both sides of the road entrance, however the one to the right of the driver is slightly tilted towards the A40 and in any case I would be looking for the one on the left hand side anyway.

The one on the left is not quite at the entrance but rather a bit further down and is partially blocked from view as one is about to enter the road by the "considerate contractors" board that has been erected and the scaffolding that comes with it.

I would hence like to challenge the PCN based on the visibility of the signage that prohibits entrance to the road between the hours of 1500 and 1900 on weekdays.
Regards




Get BlueMail for Android
On Sep 9, 2019, at 21:16, wrote:
Hi
I'm trying to view your video evidence of the subject PCN but have not been able to on the viewmypcn website (I keep getting"there is a delay in processing your request" message).

Can you help and ensure the 28 day window is extended accordingly?
Regards


Note the last set of image links are in reverse order.

Apologies for that
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stamfordman
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 23:25
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Mr Mustard had a real go at Connell Cres. but unless something has changed and this is for the same thing the advice is to pay up.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113110

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5274896,-0....3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 23:37
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painedByPCNs
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 07:20
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 23:25) *
Mr Mustard had a real go at Connell Cres. but unless something has changed and this is for the same thing the advice is to pay up.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113110

Thanks.
Yeah my experience with ealing council pcns is that they simply don't care so not expecting to win this one on the basis mentioned in the appeal.

My only chance is the 56 day rule thing (I think). If it doesn't work because it is council or because it isn't a parking issue or anything else, I will raise the white flag.

If I have a chance, I would like to know how to go about it. Is it by submitting my appeal to the adjudicator saying response was late or is it by somehow communicating it to the council?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5274896,-0....3312!8i6656

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stamfordman
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 07:54
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As noted there is no 56 day regulation on moving traffic PCNs. That applies to replying to formal reps to a parking PCN.
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disgrunt
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 09:26
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The consensus seems to be pay at the discount. But, Give it a couple of days to see if anybody else has any bright ideas .
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cp8759
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 13:20
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I have to say in this instance Ealing's paperwork is spot on, I dare say an example of best practice. For moving traffic there is no 56 day rule, the tribunal has generally ruled that a delay of over 2 - 3 months is a breach of the public law duty to act fairly, but we're nowhere near that sort of delay in this case.

Unless someone has a eureka moment before the 14 days are up, I would definitely recommend paying the discount.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 13:20


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Mr Mustard
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 13:33
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Can I see a full size photo of one of the council's photos as the hoarding may make the signs less than adequate. I doubt there will be anything else that would win.


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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painedByPCNs
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 09:00
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 13:33) *
Can I see a full size photo of one of the council's photos as the hoarding may make the signs less than adequate. I doubt there will be anything else that would win.


Here you go (sorry took a while to order again from viewmypcn). Thanks for taking a look:
https://ibb.co/kmGxpNW
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Mr Mustard
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 09:12
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Given the problem of seeing the left hand sign over the top of the hoarding, and as you get nearer it may disappear from sight altogether due to the car being below the level of the hoarding, I think it cannot be described as adequate.

That leaves the sign on the right which on its own isn't clear as to where it applies.

Whether an adjudicator would agree is something that only they know.

Best that the OP doesn't have a representative at the tribunal as I think they would get a more sympathetic hearing on their own.

I have too much history at this site and it would make Ealing more likely to contest. This is a good time to start an Appeal as it would be listed for a hearing in 4 weeks time and with Xmas coming up councils don't contest more Appeals than usual.

Up to the OP whether he wants to risk the £130 or not.


--------------------
All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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painedByPCNs
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:12
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 09:12) *
Given the problem of seeing the left hand sign over the top of the hoarding, and as you get nearer it may disappear from sight altogether due to the car being below the level of the hoarding, I think it cannot be described as adequate.

That leaves the sign on the right which on its own isn't clear as to where it applies.

Whether an adjudicator would agree is something that only they know.

Best that the OP doesn't have a representative at the tribunal as I think they would get a more sympathetic hearing on their own.

I have too much history at this site and it would make Ealing more likely to contest. This is a good time to start an Appeal as it would be listed for a hearing in 4 weeks time and with Xmas coming up councils don't contest more Appeals than usual.

Up to the OP whether he wants to risk the £130 or not.



Thanks Mr Mustard
I have decided to pay up.

Thanks everyone who contributed. It is very much appreciated
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 09:25
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Payment is the wise choice on this one.

Like Mr M I have always thought the L/H sign was the key to these cases.

It's set back from the turning and despite the "siting" requirements of LATOR 1996 adjudicators have accepted its position.

The hoarding exacerbates this inadequacy but it could be a difficult to persuade an adjudicator.


Mick
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