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Statutory Declaration on Monday, Looking for a bit of advice in advance please
jupiter4
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 14:40
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Hi all,

I've read quite a few of the posts on the forum, and they are really informative, so I think I know how Monday is going to go... But I thought I'd just post my scenario in advance, in case this changes how I should proceed at all on Monday...

So, I got a letter to my home address around 30th May, the letter was a 'further steps notice'... 'the amount you owe is £811'... 'Further failure to pay means that we may put a warrant out for your arrest'......

I had no idea whatsoever what this was in relation to, and never even knew I owed money for anything... So the next morning I called the enforcement centre as soon as they opened at 9am, and asked what this was all about. The lady on the phone advised that the fine was in relation to a speeding offence from July 2018, and the outcome of the court hearing where my case was heard; the result was 6 points for failure to report who was driving a motor vehicle and £811 fine, they were now chasing the money. I explained to the lady on the phone that I had no clue about any of this, and the alleged speeding offence took place 7 days after I moved house last year. She told me to call the magistrates court straight away and tell them I wanted to make a statutory declaration, she explained that she would put my fine with them on hold pending the outcome of that. I asked if all previous correspondence has gone to my old address, how had they got my correct address; the lady said that they were trying to collect the moneys owed and they had access to third party systems and found the new address via that..

Called the magistrates straight away, got a date booked in for 24th June... Now just looking for a little bit of advice in advance please...

When I moved address, we got a completion date a few days before we moved, so I started updating all of my addresses between 1-3 days before moving, in fact the date we moved into our new house, the new driving licenses were there on the mat with the new addresses, as we were so conscious not to miss anything. I am a company car driver, and had updated my Company with the new address, again about 2 days before moving, so they had the new address before the alleged offence took place.

I initially thought it was something I'd done wrong, forgot to update a system at work or something etc. however, upon investigating this further, it turns out I've identified a failure in our internal processes, and that I updated everything I should have done as an employee. The failure was the link between our company systems, and our company car provider. Therefore, work are being really understanding and letting me take the time off work to attend court etc.

I've only received all of the original correspondence sent to my old address by pestering both the court and the police force, otherwise I'd be turning up on Monday and expected to please guilty or not guilty with no information regarding the original alleged offence at all which is shocking...

I've read a lot on here about asking if it's possible to make a 'plea bargain' to drop the S172 charge and plead guilty to the original speeding offence etc. but I guess my question is, if I were to plead not guilty to both then they went to trial; I think I'd have enough evidence regarding the S172 charge as I have evidence from DVLA and my Company that I updated the relevant systems, and that it was a company process failure.

However, with regards to the actual speeding offence, because it was around 11 months ago, I drive on average 30-40k miles per year, so I can't understand how they expect me to remember where I was 11 months ago, doing 49 in a 40... so how can I plead guilty if I don't remember... I feel like the police force or the courts have followed a fair process at all in this situation, and I am not at fault in being in this situation I'm in right now (apart from possibly the original speeding offence), but I mean all of the stress and sleepless nights caused by it being heard in my absence, 6 points and £800 fine being issued to me without my knowledge. I feel like the police force and/or the courts could and should have made reasonable attempts to locate my correct address. I understand at first they will go to the car owner, which is the leasing company that my work uses, they have unknowingly given my old address to the police force, then the police have used that to write to me because at that time the issue is concerning my car... But then at some point the issue changes, and is not so much about the car, it then becomes that I am the problem because according to them, I've failed to report who was driving a motor vehicle, so surely at that point a license check should have been done on me as a person, at which point they would have seen that I updated my driving license address with DVLA at the right time in July before the speeding, then I wouldn't be going through this...

If no DVLA check done at that point, there was more correspondence sent to the old address, then it was heard in court in my absence at the end of March 2019, surely at the point they physically logged on to my online driving licence to apply the 6 points, they should have checked the license, and should have realised that the address didn't match the address they had been using all along??

The worst part about all this is, and so high risk, is that outside of work I own a motorcycle, and have been riding around on my bike with 6 points on my license since the end of March completely unaware of the fact, its so dangerous, could you imagine if I had fallen off, or had an accident, tried to claim on my insurance and they inform me that my insurance is void as I failed to declare I have points on my license... I just feel like all of this stress, anxiety, loss of sleep, and danger on my bike could have been avoided if they had just followed a fair and reasonable process. I mean what's the point in threatening people with a £1000 fine if they fail to inform DVLA of a change of address, if the police force and courts aren't going to use that information anyway....???

Does the above, failure in process, unfair treatment, failure to make reasonable attempts to get my correct address when I'd updated it everywhere, putting me at risk when driving a motorcycle make any difference to the courts, or the CPS? Or if I plead not guilty, could they potentially take me to trial and find me guilty of speeding anyway without a care for what they have put me through? Am I right in thinking it's not just about whether the person is guilty, but also about whether the police force have followed the correct and fair process, or did I make that up? Am I wasting my time even thinking about or being annoyed at what they have put me through the last couple of weeks?


On another note, if I do go in and make a plea bargain, could the court advise of a speed awareness course, or has that ship sailed am I destined for points regardless of the fact it's not my fault I missed the rest of the process? And will the points be backdated to July 2018, the original date of the offence? As when I look at the points I have on my license at the moment, they were given at the end of March, but backdated to the 'date of the offence' which from their letters was end of September.

Any info you can give me ahead of Monday to help me make an informed decision would be so appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Jupiter4
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post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 14:40
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Irksome
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 14:54
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It would seem to me that you have a good chance of defending the S172 offence as you were diligent in updating your details with your company, and it was they who failed to update your details with the leasing company. You would however need evidence to support your case, but that's nothing you need to worry about immediately as your appointment on Monday is for the Stat Dec. In theory that should be it, however some courts to try and deal with the original case there and then by way of accepting a guilty plea for the speeding offence and dropping the Fail to Provide charge.

However in your case, and subject to other opinions that will be put forward here, I would suggest you plead not guilty to both charges and let them arrange a new hearing.

You must not identify yourself as the driver at the time of the speeding offence. Unless you do so there is no evidence as to the identity of the driver, and therefore the speeding charge cannot be proven.


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You are encouraged to seek advice at https://www.ftla.uk/speeding-and-other-criminal-offences/ where the vast majority of the experts here have moved over to already.
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Jlc
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 14:55
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The course has sailed.

You basically have two choices either defend the s172 failing to furnish or perform a plea bargain (if you accept you were most likely driving).

From what you've said it appears you have the makings of a defence.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 15:24


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 14:58
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You don't need to get too bogged down with the reasons why this happened. They didn't have your new address and that's that.

It is true that you seem to have a good chance of successfully defending the FtP charge. If you want to go down that road be prepared to defend yourself at trial (rather than do the deal). You have seen, however, that the cost of failure is high. If not, read on!

The Statutory Declaration will nullify the conviction. In most areas now you are asked to enter a plea to the offence at the same hearing. Ideally you should seek out the prosecutor before the court sits (enquire at reception when you check in) and offer to plead guilty to the speeding providing (and only providing) the "Fail to Provide Driver's Details" charge is dropped. Under no circumstances plead guilty to either offence unless and until that agreement has been reached. In the unlikely event the deal is declined maintain Not Guilty pleas to both matters. The speeding prosecution cannot succeed (they have no evidence who was driving) and you can consider your position regarding the FtP charge later (your trial for that matter will not be held on Monday).

If your deal is accepted 49 ina 40 would normally qualify for a Fixed Penalty (£100 and 3 points). You could ask the court to sentence you at that level. They have guidance which allows them to do so:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances.

This is where you may have to persuade the court that you took all reasonable steps to ensure your change of address was properly notified to the lease company (so as to make the difficulties outside your control). The court has no powers to order a speed awareness course.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 15:05
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Irksome
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 15:00
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NewJudge, don't you think it sounds like the OP has a good case to defend the FtP charge and therefore should not do the plea deal? This could always be done at the later hearing?

This post has been edited by Irksome: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 15:02


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PePiPoo will likely close in October due to issues beyond the control of any contributor to this forum.

You are encouraged to seek advice at https://www.ftla.uk/speeding-and-other-criminal-offences/ where the vast majority of the experts here have moved over to already.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 15:04
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 16:00) *
NewJudge, don't you think it sounds like the OP has a good case to defend the FtP charge and therefore should not do the plea deal? This could always be done at the later hearing?

Yes I do (amended my post to reflect).
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jupiter4
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 15:40
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 16:04) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 16:00) *
NewJudge, don't you think it sounds like the OP has a good case to defend the FtP charge and therefore should not do the plea deal? This could always be done at the later hearing?

Yes I do (amended my post to reflect).


Thanks all, if I were to plead not guilty to both, then try to defend the FtP charge, I'm worried what the outcome will be of the speeding offence if found guilty, as at that point it wouldn't be just 3 points and £100 fine, it would be more... Then potentially another 6 points plus a fine if I'm not successful at defending FtP offence? I don't want to come away from this with loads of points and massive fine etc. if it's not worth it as I've already lost a lot of sleep and concentration at work...!

Also, whilst I have evidence from my company where they have written a letter for me to take to court admitting it was a failure in their process, I don't have evidence that I took reasonable steps to make sure the leasing company had the new address... As my contract is with the company not the leasing company, so I don't deal with them direct. their contract is with the leasing company. As an employee I updated my HR record, and also my internal driver license record... one or both of those should have been flagged to update the leasing company, but it wasn't. Even when I got the letter at the end of May, I called the leasing company and asked if they could just update my address so I know they have the right one (they still had the wrong one), but they said no because it has to come via the company.. Took 3 attempts at calling back to get one of them to agree to just update my address... !
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Jlc
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 16:04
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They cannot convict the speeding without evidence as to the driver... (There is none)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 16:23
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QUOTE (jupiter4 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 16:40) *
Also, whilst I have evidence from my company where they have written a letter for me to take to court admitting it was a failure in their process, I don't have evidence that I took reasonable steps to make sure the leasing company had the new address... As my contract is with the company not the leasing company, so I don't deal with them direct. their contract is with the leasing company. As an employee I updated my HR record, and also my internal driver license record... one or both of those should have been flagged to update the leasing company, but it wasn't. Even when I got the letter at the end of May, I called the leasing company and asked if they could just update my address so I know they have the right one (they still had the wrong one), but they said no because it has to come via the company.. Took 3 attempts at calling back to get one of them to agree to just update my address... !

Can you provide evidence of this? The failure seems to be (if i'm reading it correctly) of the leasing company's making. You cannot be responsible for that provided you have gone through the process your employer demands to notify your change of address in a timely manner.

I can understand your reluctance to risk defending the matter as the cost of failure is quite high (though, as pointed out, you cannot, as things stand, be convicted of speeding). The decision for you really boils down to either:

1. Defending the FtP charge (with which it seems, from what you have said, you have a good chance of success)

or

2. "Playing safe" by doing the deal and probably being sentenced at the Fixed Penalty level or at worst in accordance with the sentencing guidelines (a third of a week's net income, a surcharge of 10% of the fine - minimum £30, £85 costs and three points).

A separate consideration is insurance. I don't know how your company car insurance works but it will almost certainly influence your bike cover. An endorsement for speeding is unlikely to have much effect, if any on your premiums. But an endorsement for FtP certainly will.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 16:26
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jupiter4
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 16:34
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 17:04) *
They cannot convict the speeding without evidence as to the driver... (There is none)


How would they get evidence of who the driver was? If I was successful in defending the FtP charge, would I then be expected to provide details as to the driver of the vehicle as originally requested in the correspondence I missed? Or would this be dropped as it is out of time?
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jupiter4
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 16:52
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 17:23) *
QUOTE (jupiter4 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 16:40) *
Also, whilst I have evidence from my company where they have written a letter for me to take to court admitting it was a failure in their process, I don't have evidence that I took reasonable steps to make sure the leasing company had the new address... As my contract is with the company not the leasing company, so I don't deal with them direct. their contract is with the leasing company. As an employee I updated my HR record, and also my internal driver license record... one or both of those should have been flagged to update the leasing company, but it wasn't. Even when I got the letter at the end of May, I called the leasing company and asked if they could just update my address so I know they have the right one (they still had the wrong one), but they said no because it has to come via the company.. Took 3 attempts at calling back to get one of them to agree to just update my address... !

Can you provide evidence of this? The failure seems to be (if i'm reading it correctly) of the leasing company's making. You cannot be responsible for that provided you have gone through the process your employer demands to notify your change of address in a timely manner.



The evidence I have is:

Evidence that I updated my HR Record with my new address 3 days before moving house; alleged speeding offence end of July, 1 week after moving house
Auto-reply (and DVLA could confirm if required) that I updated my address with them on the same date
Letter from my employer stating that 'Due to an error by 'leasing company' on behalf of 'company', the fine was issued to an incorrect address and as such was not received by me until end of May 2019'... 'The error has now been rectified in our systems'... 'As advised above, this was due to an administrative error. In the event of any future consequences we have supplied this statement to (me) as evidence of no wrongdoing on their part'.

What I don't have is the royal mail mail forwarding service, as I was so confident I had updated my address in all of the important places and therefore it wouldn't be required.

I definitely don't want to end up with having to keep the 6 points on my license (or having them taken off on Monday and reapplied after a trial), for FtP as that will for sure affect my bike insurance... Doesn't affect me via the Company Car, but would in future if I left or chose to opt out and get my own car.

Would just like to say a quick thanks for the quick replies I've received on this so far, you are all so knowledgeable and I really appreciate your time and effort in responding to my queries! It's nice to have a little support when I've basically been going out of my mind with worry over all of this for the last 3 weeks since I found out... I found this website via a forum chat on mumsnet, and so glad I did ! rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif
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NewJudge
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 18:32
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QUOTE (jupiter4 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 17:34) *
How would they get evidence of who the driver was?

By you completing a Section 172 request to provide the driver's details. That is usually the only method they have.

QUOTE (jupiter4 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 17:34) *
If I was successful in defending the FtP charge, would I then be expected to provide details as to the driver of the vehicle as originally requested in the correspondence I missed? Or would this be dropped as it is out of time?

No you wouldn't. If you successfully defend the charge that is the end of both matters. You would have been acquitted of FtP and the speeding prosecution cannot succeed because you did not provide the necessary evidence.


As far as defending the FtP charge goes, it is my view that you had done enough to ensure that any correspondence concerning your company car reached you. It seems clear that the reason you did not receive the paperwork was because of the error by the leasing company. The only slight doubt I have of your success is the lack of Royal Mail forwarding. But I witnessed a case almost identical to yours a few months ago and the driver was acquitted. The Bench believed he had done all that was reasonably expected of him to ensure he received correspondence regarding his leased car.

Of course the warning comes that every case turns on its merits on the day and you can never be 100% sure of success. So your choice remains as I outlined in post #9.
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southpaw82
post Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 11:31
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QUOTE (jupiter4 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 17:04) *
They cannot convict the speeding without evidence as to the driver... (There is none)


How would they get evidence of who the driver was?

Potentially by asking you whether you were the driver when you’re giving your evidence. You would need to make a submission of no case to answer at the close of the prosecution case (before you give evidence) to get the speeding charge dropped.


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jupiter4
post Sun, 23 Jun 2019 - 21:33
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 19:32) *
QUOTE (jupiter4 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 17:34) *
How would they get evidence of who the driver was?

By you completing a Section 172 request to provide the driver's details. That is usually the only method they have.

QUOTE (jupiter4 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 17:34) *
If I was successful in defending the FtP charge, would I then be expected to provide details as to the driver of the vehicle as originally requested in the correspondence I missed? Or would this be dropped as it is out of time?

No you wouldn't. If you successfully defend the charge that is the end of both matters. You would have been acquitted of FtP and the speeding prosecution cannot succeed because you did not provide the necessary evidence.


As far as defending the FtP charge goes, it is my view that you had done enough to ensure that any correspondence concerning your company car reached you. It seems clear that the reason you did not receive the paperwork was because of the error by the leasing company. The only slight doubt I have of your success is the lack of Royal Mail forwarding. But I witnessed a case almost identical to yours a few months ago and the driver was acquitted. The Bench believed he had done all that was reasonably expected of him to ensure he received correspondence regarding his leased car.

Of course the warning comes that every case turns on its merits on the day and you can never be 100% sure of success. So your choice remains as I outlined in post #9.


Thank you for the advice, I’m still in two mind about what to do tomorrow... purely because of the risks associated with being unsuccessful, which isn’t the way this should be as I know for a fact I didn’t do anything wrong ! I think I read in one of the previous replies on the topic that I can always ask for a plea bargain on the day of the trial if I decide to plead not guilty tomorrow ?



QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 12:31) *
QUOTE (jupiter4 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 17:04) *
They cannot convict the speeding without evidence as to the driver... (There is none)


How would they get evidence of who the driver was?

Potentially by asking you whether you were the driver when you’re giving your evidence. You would need to make a submission of no case to answer at the close of the prosecution case (before you give evidence) to get the speeding charge dropped.


Thank you ! 😊
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