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PCN - 10 minute grace period rejected
dreamer588
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 23:23
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Hello all,

Apologies if this has been discussed about previously - I've had a search through the forums and only found another case that was also rejected with no conclusion..

I've just got my PCN appeal (first stage, unofficial notice) rejected by Richmond council. My argument was that the ticket was issued within 10 minutes of the ticket expiring and their argument was that:

QUOTE
"It is a common belief among motorists that there is a fixed or compulsory “grace period” allowed before a PCN is issued. This is totally incorrect. A Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) may issue a PCN the instant he/she believes a parking contravention has occurred.

In some instances a vehicle may be parked in a restricted place; however, there may be circumstances that could legitimize the vehicle’s presence. On those occasions the CEO may observe the vehicle for a brief period of time before issuing a PCN. This period is at the sole discretion of the CEO and does not constitute any allowance for the motorist."


Surely, this goes against the law? Have I got grounds if I were to take this further?

I've attached all the necessary information below.

Parking Ticket
Attached File  PCN.pdf ( 392.07K ) Number of downloads: 101


Appeal Letter
Attached Image


Legislation link: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/56...20150561_en.pdf

Parking Receipt
Attached File  Car_Parking_Invoice.pdf ( 261.99K ) Number of downloads: 61


Council Response
Attached File  187019E840650.PDF ( 169.91K ) Number of downloads: 57


Thanks
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post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 23:23
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 07:54
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Council's letter is total bullsh*t I would continue.

There are some procedural improprieties therein "no further correspondence will be considered prior to the issue of Notice to Owner"--"recovery procedures will continue".

The PCN was served during the 10 minute grace period and is therefore invalid--end of.

Tell them to read the legislation which you noted in your challenge and that you will seek costs because of their unreasonableness ---incompetence if the case gets to adjudication.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 08:53
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Dear Miss Walden,
Re: PCN *******; VRM *******

I refer to your letter dated 13 September rejecting my earlier representations against this PCN.

It appears to be a common belief within the enforcement authority that there isn't a 10-minute 'grace' period before a PCN may be served. This is totally incorrect.

You are prevented from issuing a PCN in the following circumstances:

2.—(1) The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007(1) are amended as follows.

(2) In regulation 4 (imposition of penalty charges)—

(a)re-number the existing provision as (1);
(b)at the end insert—
“(2) Paragraph (3) applies in relation to a contravention mentioned in subparagraph (a) to © of paragraph (1) where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

(3) No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.

(4) In this regulation—

(a)“designated parking place” means a parking place established by virtue of an order made under section 1, 6, 9, 32(1)(b), 35 or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984(2);
(b)“permitted parking period” means—
(i)a period of parking that has been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place; or
(ii)a period of parking for which no charge is payable as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place.”


In the circumstances of my case the precedent conditons applied and therefore the authority were prevented from serving a PCN until 17.41, 17.40 being inclusive to the prescribed period.

As the PCN was served at 17.40 it is void and must be cancelled.

For information, if the authority do not cancel the PCN and continue to pursue this penalty then as owner I shall press for costs at adjudication.


I am copying this letter to the Head of Parkng to deal with the issues of competence and clear need for training.

Hugs
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DancingDad
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 09:13
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One question before firing off a full broadside......
Was the parking session lawful?

If it was, ie that the P&D session applied for the space, fire all guns, council is talking b0ll0cks !
But if there was an error reading signs and the P&D wasn't valid then PCN may be legit and though council response could be clearer.....
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hcandersen
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 09:55
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The authority's letter states:

'...established that a payment enabled the vehicle to remain at that location until 17.30..'


Sortez les canons, wait for the uproll,...... fire!

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 09:58
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:03
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:13) *
One question before firing off a full broadside......
Was the parking session lawful?

If it was, ie that the P&D session applied for the space, fire all guns, council is talking b0ll0cks !
But if there was an error reading signs and the P&D wasn't valid then PCN may be legit and though council response could be clearer.....


The rejection confirms that the parking was legal til 15.30 so I would go for it big style as per HCA, perhaps also copy head of legal
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DancingDad
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:14
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Works for me, target in sight, fire for effect !
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Jo Carn
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 12:54
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HCanderson is spot on. for something more recent you can also add...

I refer you to the TMA 2004: The Secretary of State’s Statutory Guidance to the Local Authorities on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions 2015. Section 8.11 states:
The law requires that a penalty charge must not be issued to a vehicle which has stayed parked in a parking place on a road or in a local authority's car park beyond the permitted parking period for a period of time not exceeding 10 minutes. The grace period applies to on-street and off-street parking places provided under traffic orders, whether the period of parking is paid for or free. Any penalty charge during the 10-minute grace period would be illegal, unless the vehicle itself is parked unlawfully
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dreamer588
post Fri, 1 Dec 2017 - 03:43
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Just thought that I'd update everyone that thanks to hcandersen and Jo Carn, the appeal was successful!

Thank you!
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DancingDad
post Fri, 1 Dec 2017 - 10:03
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Excellent.

I assume an apology and confirmation that legal aspects had been the subject of retraining were not included.
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dreamer588
post Fri, 1 Dec 2017 - 16:02
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 1 Dec 2017 - 10:03) *
Excellent.

I assume an apology and confirmation that legal aspects had been the subject of retraining were not included.


Correct - no response at all. Went into the online portal and saw that it's been cancelled.
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John U.K.
post Fri, 1 Dec 2017 - 17:36
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QUOTE
Correct - no response at all. Went into the online portal and saw that it's been cancelled.


Take a screenshot and print off. Hopefully you will get the letter of Acceptance and cancellation in the Christmas post.
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Jo Carn
post Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 10:39
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Every the comedian, Dancing Dad!
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DancingDad
post Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 10:43
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QUOTE (Jo Carn @ Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 10:39) *
Every the comedian, Dancing Dad!


Born optimist Jo.
I live in hope that one day, one council will actually fess up to being greedy twonkers.
I accept this is a forlorn hope but....
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hcandersen
post Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 11:54
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Well done.

To continue with the military analogy, you've seen a white flag flying over their position but they have yet to sign the instrument of surrender😄
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dreamer588
post Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 03:01
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 11:54) *
Well done.

To continue with the military analogy, you've seen a white flag flying over their position but they have yet to sign the instrument of surrender😄


instrument of surrender has finally arrived through my front door shortly after checking online.



Thank you again!

This post has been edited by dreamer588: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 03:02
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DancingDad
post Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 09:51
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There's an apology in that !!!!! smile.gif

All done and dusted now mate, onwards to the next encounter, keep your powder dry and no parking on a lee shore.
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John U.K.
post Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 09:53
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Wow! A hands-up, "We woz wrong" apology.

Someone had an early dose of Christmas spirit. smile.gif
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