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Strange reason for rejecting informal appeal
MarvinL
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:00
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Hi all. I have held a residents' parking permit in my neighbourhood for many years. Always renewed on time. This year in the renewal letter the council said they would no longer be issuing physical permits, and that henceforth traffic wardens would scan number plates with a handheld device and would know automatically that you had paid. I filled in the form and sent it off with the requisite documentation and a cheque for the right amount, around the 18 July, in good time for the renewal on 1 August.

On 3 August I received a parking ticket. Apparently the letter wasn't received, or might have been sat in someone's in-tray. I submitted an informal appeal, because I believe I took reasonable steps to renew and given that no physical permit was to be issued, I was not expecting to receive anything through the post. I did check to see whether the cheque had been cashed, but often organizations wait for a while and then cash a batch of cheques all at once, so didn't think much of it that it hadn't been cashed yet.

The main issue is the reason given for rejecting the informal appeal. It says that the penalty charge notice was issued on 3 August and an online permit application was made on 4 August, so my stated reason for appeal (i.e. I'd applied for the permit in good time and hadn't thought it odd that I didn't receive a physical permit because they're no longer issuing physical permits) 'would have no bearing on the case'. I did indeed submit a new application online on the day I received the PCN, realizing that they can't have received/processed my initial application and not wishing to end up with further parking tickets. After all, appealing against a PCN isn't a process that will issue me with a permit. But it's this online application, which I made on the day I received the PCN, that they're using as the reason for rejecting my informal appeal.

That doesn't hold water. I can see how they could say 'sorry, you should have called us the day before your permit expired to make sure we had processed your application'. On that, I would agree with them. But that's not the reason they've given. Somehow the fact that I made a second application online after the PCN was issued invalidates the mitigating circumstances I have put forward.

Any thoughts specifically on the reason for rejection they have given?
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post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:00
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stamfordman
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:09
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What council? Post the PCN.

Some councils have a grace period for permit renewals of at least a week. As you are an exemplary resident I would have expected a challenge on this ticket to be successful.

Post the challenge and rejection too. Your 4 Aug renewal should not have been a factor.

Lesson is - do it online. Cheques and post are last century and councils lose stuff all the time.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:11
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:13
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OP--- the situation described in the first part of your narrative is called abuse of process and I doubt you are liable for the penalty charge. Abuse of process occurs when the inefficiency/incompetence of one part of the Council results in you being penalised by another part of the Council---- in law, this is deemed prejudicial and unfair.

Proving this has happened is another matter and you appear to have some difficulty in this respect unless you have proof of postage or the cheque has been cashed.

You haven't posted the PCN but the contravention will mention "display" which is daft if the Council has resorted to virtual permits because there is nothing to display. I think there is something in the sticky thread (Cases to Assist) on this.

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:14
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has the cheque been cashed? What council some have a grace period

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:14
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MarvinL
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:44
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Portsmouth City Council. Cheque hasn't been cashed, not even since. I have no proof of posting. Cheque stub in cheque book probably won't count as proof. How do you insert a scanned image on here? I've tried using the attachment editor, but it'll only accept attaching one document, and once I click upload it just says Manage Current Attachments (0), and no attachment shows in the preview.

EDIT: It doesn't work when I edit the post and tried to add it the same way.

This post has been edited by MarvinL: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:45
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stamfordman
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:45
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Use a site such as Flickr for pics and post the BBCode links to embed them on the forum.
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MarvinL
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:48
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stamfordman
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:53
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OK - what's the location and what does to say on the bay sign you parked in?
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hcandersen
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 18:05
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OP, basics pl.

The PCN, leave in everything except personal details.

Presumably (this relates to the last posts which ask you for the location and details of the usage Ts and Cs) this is a car park where a permit is acceptable in lieu of a P&D ticket - something which your first post avoids completely!

No PCN but the minutiae of the problems of copying stub entries in a cheque book- aaaaargh!
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MarvinL
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 18:07
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Sorry, new to this. I'll upload the PCN after I take my son to bed. It's street parking, where you have to pay to park unless you hold a residents' permit for the applicable zone.
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MarvinL
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 19:33
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stamfordman
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 19:42
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Location? You've blanked it.
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MarvinL
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 19:49
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Portsmouth.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 20:26
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What's Marvin the Paranoid Android doing here? It won't work.
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MarvinL
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 21:13
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I don't understand. This is all publicly viewable, and I don't want to give any more information than I need to. Why would anyone need to know the specific street?
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Incandescent
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 21:59
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QUOTE (MarvinL @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 22:13) *
I don't understand. This is all publicly viewable, and I don't want to give any more information than I need to. Why would anyone need to know the specific street?

Sorry, but you're being needlessly paranoid. This is a decriminalised parking ticket we're talking about not a murder case ! We use Google Street View to look at the street involved in order to give better advice. The only things needing to be blanked out are (1) PCN Number, and (2) car details, and for a postal PCN name and address.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 07:14
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+1

By way of example, we need to see the location because the sign you posted is not a traffic sign prescribed for on-street use, it's a tariff schedule which would normally be situated in a car park.
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MarvinL
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 07:26
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Morning guys. Ah, OK, I see. It was on Clarence Parade, Southsea, PO5.
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MarvinL
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 18:55
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Do these help?







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DancingDad
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 19:20
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Okay, now I am cunfussed.

Your original related to not having a permit.
The PCN and rejection relate to not having paid a normal P&D charge.
Signs are for a P&D parking area

Notwithstanding the rejection discussing the application for a permit, what made you think you could park in a P&D bay with one ?
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