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Bailiffs attending old address, Threads merged
C-Sec
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 21:21
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dry.gif

Evening everyone!

Okay- On 07/09/17 I received a phone call from my old letting agent. She told me that bailiffs had attended my old address looking for me, due to 2 unpaid PCN's.
I jumped on the back of my friend's motorbike and headed straight to my old address. I spoke to the tenants who said they'd received numerous letters in my name; (For some reason instead of forwarding them to me, they returned them to sender.) They told me that they'd had several visits from bailiffs. They started getting annoyed by the visits and so told the letting agent.

Obviously shocked at hearing this, I spent all weekend ringing and emailing the council, traffic enforcement centre etc. to try and find out what was going on. The council was useless and still haven't replied. I spoke with the TEC who told me not to worry, and to just find out the PCN numbers so I could then sort them. Limited with what I could do over the weekend, I found this website.

Finally, new letters came to my old address. The tenants took them straight to my letting agent and I finally got the PCN's scanned over to me today (11/09/2017). This is the very first time I have been able to see the alleged offences.

They are both from the same day for contravening a keep left sign. The first is at 19:28pm on 10/06/2017 and the second is at 23:14pm on 10/06/2017.

It's now 3 months later, and the very first I've heard of any of this. Shockingly, It's been to court already and bailiffs assigned!

When I moved address, I changed it on my driving licence. I am almost certain that I also updated the registered keeper's address with the DVLA, however I have since sold the car and the V5 has gone with it, so I have no way of checking. All of my DVLA correspondence comes to my new address, and I do honestly think I changed it over. I can't remember.

I watched the live evidence online, and it is blatantly me. I have no problem putting my hands up and admitting it. I'm on CCTV going offside round a keep left sign, to do a cheeky right turn into asda.

My concern however is:

1- I would have paid immediately if I'd recieved the PCN's. As I said, I'm bang to rights- and would have paid both reduced fines of £65.
2- Having this already been to court, I'm concerned I now have a CCJ issued which will ruin my credit rating?

Help!!

I vaguely understand that I need to fill in a form (PE3?) and submit it to court. If accepted, this will rewind all of this nightmare, so that I can just pay the reduced fees. Currently, the council wants me to pay £406- for an offence I won't even get points for.

Thanks for reading.

PCN1
PCN2
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post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 21:21
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Neil B
post Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 12:59
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Well, in a way you have a head start on preparing a possible 'out of time' application.

Read, below 'Let's explain'. in post #61 here >
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...60&start=60

It is imperative that applications to file late are correctly focussed, contain all relevant
facts and backed up by evidence.

but I'm already sensing this hasn't yet sunk in as no feedback?

Ask any questions you need to.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 23:15
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So.
These two sorted? i.e. Stat Decs filed?

Any news on the other one(s) ?


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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C-Sec
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 15:23
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Hi Neil,

When it rains, it pours. My printer broke, so I ended up having to go to work to print the stat decs off. I then got a taxi to Willesden County Court, for them to turn me away because I need 'an appointment'. I tried explaining that it was literally a signature but they were having none of it. Another taxi up tomorrow then...

Still no reply from the councils, and I've already tried every major bailiff agency etc. I can't think of anything else I can do until either the bailiffs return and leave details, or the councils reply to me. dry.gif

This post has been edited by C-Sec: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 15:23
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Neil B
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 00:54
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I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that most Cty Cts have gone to appointments since the cuts.
You sounded confident so I wrongly assumed you'd checked.

Don't worry about this process though; as I said, it's automatic and you have plenty of time.

DO bring the new PCNs here though and let other members look at them. It may not be as slam-dunk for
the Council as you think.

--
On the info a bailiff has visited, I agree, you've done what you can.
I guess there's no suspicion the new occupiers are winding you up?
I suppose it doesn't sound so based on the description of bodycams, etc.

If suitably convinced you're not 'there', their next visit would be you.
Sorry, just the reality.
Then we have to turn around a more difficult application very quickly.
Hence my suggestion you compile basic details, now.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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ford poplar
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 04:03
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Note for others, to avoid this situation
If you change address, change it on V5c without delay, not just DL
Set up an imm mail redirect service. Other persons need not forward mail, but ideally should 'return to sender'.
A High St Solic may be willing to hear and attest (sign) a Stat Dec for ~£10.
Police Notices may have more serious consequences.
AFAIK a Stat Dec can only reset the process for the full, not discounted, Penalty.
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Neil B
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 08:44
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QUOTE (ford poplar @ Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 05:03) *
AFAIK a Stat Dec can only reset the process for the full, not discounted, Penalty.

Please go and check Ford.
That's wrong.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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Neil B
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 09:39
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 09:44) *
QUOTE (ford poplar @ Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 05:03) *
AFAIK a Stat Dec can only reset the process for the full, not discounted, Penalty.

Please go and check Ford.
That's wrong.

But a useful reminder I haven't actually explained to C-sec what happens next.

In a case where postal PCN not received, as here, you will get sent a copy of a TEC Order, cancelling
the OfR and Charge Certificate.
The Council may then either drop the case or, as invariably, serve a new PCN
(which of course will offer the chance to pay at discount).

@ Ford.
For SD, the only instance discount would be lost is where it involves a London bus lane; a new
Enf Ntce can be served and, being the equivalent of NtO, yes full amount.

For parking, where the similar 'Witness Statement' made, a missed postal PCN also re-establishes discount,
a missed NtO doesn't.

In all cases where reps or appeals have been made and no reply received, the matter is already at full
amount (technically) so, when referred to adjudicator as then required, yes full amount in play.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 09:41


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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C-Sec
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 10:00
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Thanks for all of your help.

I'm compiling documents from when i sold my car, screenshots of the extent of numbers I've rang, emails sent to the councils etc.

- Trying to ring the court to book an appt but it keeps saying the line's busy. Il keep trying.

Thanks again
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C-Sec
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 12:21
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PE3 forms signed and submitted....boom!
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C-Sec
post Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 11:26
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Hi all,

would somebody please mind checking over my PE2 form before I go get it signed?

Also, will I need a PE3 form as well?

I was told to make a new topic and not write war and peace...

The screenshots from Brent council are here ----> Screenshot


Attachment A+B - Screenshots of council system
Attachment C - email reply from Brent council proving date I received the info
Attachment D - Driving licence with current address
Attachment F - moving into current address
Attachment G - screenshot of my hundreds of calls to the council

Attachment E has been left out as it's just a random irrelevant form.

Do i need to print all of these out and staple them to the application? Or scan and upload them to the TEC in an email?

Thanks!
Attached File(s)
Attached File  app.pdf ( 122.28K ) Number of downloads: 15
Attached File  ATTACHMENT_C_redacted.pdf ( 510.61K ) Number of downloads: 14
 
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Neil B
post Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 12:53
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These are very difficult to get right.
It takes time, when you don't have time.

- and I'm not around much at all today.

You must first understand what you are filing: The title of the form tells you -

- it is exactly that and is what you must focus on.

The screenshot from Brent shows progression of your case and issue of an OfR.
That OfR, as you know from your recent easier experiences, gave you 21 days to file a Stat Dec.

The Court needs to know why you didn't. That is the core matter.

'I was unable to file a Statutory Declaration in the normally permitted time because ------'

-- and the answer is?

------

Your efforts to identify the debt are admirable but secondary.
It does at least show you were in contact with your old address but phrases
like "hoping" to hear don't help.

--
I'm thinking we might also quote Govt. Guidance and query why Brent, now knowing address has
changed, say they can't (won't) follow that Guidance.


----
For posting images here your attachments deter people.
Host on an external site like Flickr and paste BB codes directly into replies here.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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C-Sec
post Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 13:04
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Thanks again Neil,

I'll have to rewrite it tonight. I've been in work this week but i'm off most of next week.

Il get it written up over the weekend and be ready for monday morning to get it signed and sent.

-- The PCN was coming back from a night shift, having dropped someone off on xmas eve so they could be with their family. ¬¬
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Neil B
post Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 13:10
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Your move is 'from ---- on ------ to ------'

as an example.

We'll find that 'Guidance' they should adher to, over the weekend.
The returned mail is very relevant to that as well.

--



This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 13:15


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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hcandersen
post Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 20:30
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You notified DVLA of your updated registered keeper (not driving licence) details on ***?

Was this only when you sold the car?
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C-Sec
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 11:26
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Okay,

updated PE2 and attachment of government guidance. Form

Is that what you meant?
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Neil B
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 19:52
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It's an interesting approach that, in parts, might deter a Council from contesting
We'll see what others think.

I don't have time to read thoroughly but my observations:-

You've still dodged HCA's last question and instead hinted at at a failure on your part --
mentioning updating DL but ---.

The returned mail comment might lead directly into relevance of the Guidance.

A couple of points too critical of the Council, where the core failure is likely to be yours - but
like I said, didn't read in depth so may be wrong.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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C-Sec
post Thu, 28 Sep 2017 - 11:29
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Okay- last one I promise.

This is my final draft if anyone would mind having a glance over it?

Do I need to do both a PE2 and PE3 for it, or just the PE3?

And I honestly cant remember updating the DVLA. My licence and the DVLA website both shows my current address. I've included copies of both.
I moved in november, and the PCN was issued in december, so in all honesty i probably hadnt updated them within the month. Should I include this?

I'm wanting to submit this today or tomorrow at the latest.


---------------------------------------

I DID NOT SUBMIT THE STATUTORY DECLARATION WITHIN THE GIVEN TIME, AS I WAS ONLY MADE
AWARE OF THE PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE (PCN) AFTER THE TIME HAD ALREADY EXPIRED.

THE PCN WAS SENT TO MY OLD ADDRESS OF:

************************.

ON 02/11/2016, I MOVED FROM THIS ADDRESS TO:

************************
(ATTACHMENT F)

I WAS INITIALLY MADE AWARE OF THE OUTSTANDING PCN ON 07/09/2017, WHEN
I WAS CONTACTED BY MY PREVIOUS LETTING AGENT.

FROM THE COUNCIL SYSTEM, I BELIEVE THAT THE ORDER FOR RECOVERY OF UNPAID
PENALTY CHARGE WAS ISSUED ON 13/06/2017. THE VERY FIRST TIME I RECEIVED THE PCN NUMBER
ETC. WAS IN AN EMAIL FROM BRENT COUNCIL ON 18/09/2017. THIS IS ALMOST 3 MONTHS AFTER
THE ORDER WAS ISSUED, AND I HAD ABSOLUTELY NO WAY OF KNOWING ABOUT IT.

THE PCN HAD BEEN SENT TO MY PREVIOUS ADDRESS WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE. THE TENANTS
HAD THEN RETURNED ALL OF THE PAPERWORK TO THE SENDER. (THIS IS SHOWN IN ATTACHMENT A.)
UPON HEARING THIS, I DROVE STRAIGHT TO MY PREVIOUS ADDRESS TO SPEAK WITH THE
CURRENT TENANTS. UNFORTUNATELY, THE TENANTS HAD RETURNED EVERYTHING TO SENDER.
I WAS LEFT CLUELESS AS TO WHAT THE PCN WAS FOR, WHO ISSUED IT AND WHAT THE TIME
LIMITS WERE ON IT. THE TENANTS WERE UNABLE TO REMEMBER WHO HAD SENT IT ETC.

I SPENT THE NEXT WEEK RINGING EVERY LOCAL COUNCIL, BAILIFF AGENCY (NEWLANDS,
MARSTONS, JBW ETC.) AND THE TRANSPORT ENFORCEMENT CENTRE (TEC) TO TRY AND FIND OUT
ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THE PCN. THIS ALL CAME BACK NEGATIVE.
(ATTACHMENT G SHOWS MY TRYING TO CONTACT EALING AND BRENT COUNCILS.)
THE TEC ADVISED ME THAT UNTIL I COULD GET THE PCN NUMBER, THERE WASN'T ANYTHING I COULD
DO. I WAS FINALLY CONTACTED BY BRENT COUNCIL ON 18/09/2017 (ATTACHMENTS A, B & C.)
THEY HAVE STILL BEEN UNABLE TO PROVIDE ME A COPY OF THE PCN, BUT HAVE SENT
ME A SCREENSHOT OF THEIR SYSTEM SHOWING THE PCN NUMBER, AND THAT CORRESPONDANCE
HAD BEEN SENT TO MY PREVIOUS ADDRESS, WHICH HAD THEN BEEN RETURNED TO THEM.

I DO NOT KNOW WHY THE PCN ARRIVED AT MY PREVIOUS ADDRESS.
ANY MAIL THAT ARRIVED THERE FOR ME SHOULD HAVE BEEN FORWARDED TO MY NEW ADDRESS,
AS WOULD BE THE USUAL ARRANGEMENT. MY NEW ADDRESS WAS PROVIDED TO MY
PREVIOUS LETTING AGENT.
MY DRIVING LICENCE WAS UPDATED TO MY CURRENT ADDRESS AND ALL CORRESPONDANCE
FROM THE DVLA COMES TO MY CURRENT ADDRESS (ATTACHMENT D.) I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW
WHY THE PCN HAD BEEN SENT TO MY PREVIOUS ADDRESS. I DO NOT REMEMBER THE DATE
THAT I NOTIFIED THE DVLA OF MY CHANGE OF ADDRESS, BUT HAVE ATTACHED A COPY OF MY
DVLA RECORD, WHICH SHOWS MY CURRENT ADDRESS. (ATTACHMENT I)

I SOLD MY CAR '*******' TO EVANS HALSHAW, HEMEL HEMPSTEAD ON 28/07/2017.
THE V5 WAS SURRENDERED TO THE CAR DEALERSHIP TO BE SENT TO THE DVLA SO I HAVE NO
WAY OF CHECKING THE REGISTERED ADDRESS TO CONFIRM WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE DVLA.

I HAVE SOUGHT GUIDANCE FROM THE GOVERNMENT'S CODE OF PRACTICE ON CIVIL PARKING AND
TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT. PLEASE SEE ATTACHMENT H. THIS STATES THAT HAVING BEEN UNABLE
TO SUCCESSFULLY SERVE THE NOTICES ON ME, THE COUNCIL SHOULD HAVE ATTENDED MY
PREVIOUS ADDRESS IN PERSON TO VERIFY WHETHER I LIVED THERE OR NOT. THIS WAS NOT DONE.
BAILIFFS ATTENDED FOLLOWING THE ORDER FOR RECOVERY OF PROPERTY BEING ISSUED, AND IT
WAS PROVEN TO THEM BY THE CURRENT TENANTS THROUGH USE OF THEIR TENANCY
AGREEMENT THAT I DID NOT LIVE THERE.

THE GUIDANCE STATES THAT PCN'S SHOULD NOT BE LEFT TO RUN INDEFINITELY,
WHICH IN THIS CASE - BEING ALMOST A YEAR OLD; SEEMS TO BE THE CASE. LASTLY, THE GUIDANCE
STATES THAT IF THE COUNCIL DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT THE NOTICES HAVE SUCCESSFULLY BEEN
SERVED, THEN ENFORCEMENT ACTION SHOULDN'T BE PROGRESSED. HAVING NOT ATTENDED
MY PREVIOUS ADDRESS, AND THROUGH ALL OF THE MAIL BEING RETURNED TO THEM UNOPENED;
THE COUNCIL HAVE STILL PROGRESSED ENFORCEMENT ACTION WHILST QUITE APPARENT THAT I
HAD NOT RECEIVED THE PCN.


- Thanks again for the help. There's light at the end of the tunnel.
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Neil B
post Thu, 28 Sep 2017 - 19:25
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We could discuss it forever and I have no spare time to suggest an alternative draft.

It's 'ok'; overlong and repetitive but 'ok'.
At least it might make the Council think twice about opposing.

My one suggestion would be that criticising the failure to follow DfT Guidance should be
nearer the beginning.
Relative to that, you mentioned a Council verbal promise to redirect - but not mentioned?

--
Can you remind me of the Guidance wording -- I don't have time to look for it.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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peterguk
post Thu, 28 Sep 2017 - 19:34
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QUOTE (C-Sec @ Thu, 28 Sep 2017 - 12:29) *
I DO NOT KNOW WHY THE PCN ARRIVED AT MY PREVIOUS ADDRESS.


Because that is the address DVLA had for the vehicle at the time of the contravention.


--------------------
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C-Sec
post Thu, 28 Sep 2017 - 22:08
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 28 Sep 2017 - 20:25) *
--
Can you remind me of the Guidance wording -- I don't have time to look for it.


It's a big document. The relevant bits i could find are below:

1. Authorities should consider any circumstances which may have caused a representation to be made outside the 28 day period and they may wish to exercise discretion to treat it as a valid representation, especially if a reasonable explanation for the delay has been given. In such cases, the motorist would retain the right to appeal to the adjudicator if rejected by the authority.

2. If an owner contacts an authority and says that the Charge Certificate is the first notice received, the authority should consider allowing the owner to make late representations, upon receipt of which the charge certificate should be cancelled. If the authority chooses not to do this, for example where an owner persistently makes this claim, they should explain the procedure for making a Statutory Declaration at the next stage of the process.

3. At all stages it is essential that the council takes reasonable steps to ensure that the appropriate notices are, in fact, served on the person to whom they are addressed. If the council believes that service has not taken place then enforcement action cannot proceed.

4. At the end of the day, some keepers cannot be traced. In these circumstances the authority should consider writing off the penalty as a bad debt (subject to internal rules about writing off debt) rather than keeping such PCNs open indefinitely.

5. It is recognised that there will be difficult cases where service is not easy. These include cases where service is refused or where the keeper cannot be identified. Where service is denied or refused, the authority should consider taking other steps, such as hand delivery to give a higher degree of likelihood of service. Bailiffs may also be able to help in this area.


Got an appointment for 2.30 tomorrow so will get it all sent off.
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