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NOTICE OF APPOINTMENT AS DEBT COLLECTORS
sandygarg
post Sat, 2 Sep 2017 - 19:13
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Dear Sir,

I was shocked to received a letter from the debt collector company with total outstanding amount as 392.00£ sad.gif, the details of this letter is as follows

"
Client: London borough of ealing
Contravention date: 01/12/2015
VRM: ******* (this is the VRM of my vehicle)
Location: The broadway/ herbert Road Southall 818

We have been instructed by the London borough of ealing to recover the above parking charges which remain outstanding.

PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER. FURTHER ACTION MAY BE TAKEN AT CONSIDERABLE COST TO YOU IF THE DEBT IS NOT CLEARED.
"

the letter is just one page without any further details of the PCN and contravention date is 08/12/2015. I had never received any other letter from London Borough Of Ealing and I am totally confused what shall I do now. The debt company is asking a heft charge of 392 and there is no way I can pay that, even my car is even less than that.

Please advise what shall I do, how can I challenge this letter and PCN etc.

Many Thanks
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post Sat, 2 Sep 2017 - 19:13
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sandygarg
post Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 18:19
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 13:39) *
The procedure is service of statutory notices, including Order for Recovery - which is when the TEC first get involved- followed by a warrant to be executed by authorised bailiffs. It's a legal process and bailiffs are authorised and regulated and recover their own costs through charges set by regulations.

I can call myself a 'debt collector ', it's a meaningless concept.

And as there's no warrant the 'debt collector' cannot seize property, all they can do is huff and puff.

Hence for the authority to re-engage with the prescribed process. They could do this in several ways, including rewinding the process to the PCN stage and inviting reps within a specified and extended period.


Many thanks for the information hcanderson.
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Neil B
post Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 22:29
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 08:58) *
Dear Mr Parking,
PCNs ****** & *********; VRM *********

I refer to the above and the enclosed letter from your agent, Newlyn, dated ****.

On receipt of the letter, which doesn't even refer to PCNs, I investigated the matter and have established that the above PCNs (and I assume other notices) were issued by the authority but not received by me. As you can see from this letter, I am not keeping my address a secret and my only objective is to regularise the situation to which end I should be grateful if the authority would re-engage with the prescribed procedure or confirm by return that you will drop this matter, your pursuance of which is long past a time that could be considered reasonable.

I have copied this letter to the Traffic Enforcement Centre and Newlyn to ensure that all parties are aware of the situation.

Hugs


Thoughts from others? IMO, the time for bilateral phone calls is over.

The only thing I would add - in red ? Or similar - because I've made the sentence as a whole a bit too long.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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sandygarg
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 08:34
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 23:29) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 08:58) *
Dear Mr Parking,
PCNs ****** & *********; VRM *********

I refer to the above and the enclosed letter from your agent, Newlyn, dated ****.

On receipt of the letter, which doesn't even refer to PCNs, I investigated the matter and have established that the above PCNs (and I assume other notices) were issued by the authority but not received by me. As you can see from this letter, I am not keeping my address a secret and my only objective is to regularise the situation to which end I should be grateful if the authority would re-engage with the prescribed procedure or confirm by return that you will drop this matter, your pursuance of which is long past a time that could be considered reasonable.

I have copied this letter to the Traffic Enforcement Centre and Newlyn to ensure that all parties are aware of the situation.

Hugs


Thoughts from others? IMO, the time for bilateral phone calls is over.

The only thing I would add - in red ? Or similar - because I've made the sentence as a whole a bit too long.


so by writing this letter we are advising the authority to re-engage the prescribed procedure i.e. rewinding the process to the PCN stage and "inviting reps within a specified and extended period" and send bailiff etc to recover the cost. sad.gif

is this the best way to write off the fine of 404£ in entirety?

This post has been edited by sandygarg: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 08:35
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hcandersen
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 09:20
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Background: they have your details and can now serve notices.

Consider your options:
Do nothing
In which case the 'debt collector' would after much huffing and puffing ultimately get back to their client. The authority's only options then would be to apply for a warrant or drop matters. You have no control or influence here. If they apply for a warrant then where would this leave you? You'd have to file an OOT application which would certainly be contested by the authority against a backdrop of someone who clearly ignores all correspondence. Probable outcome, TEC refuse your application which would leave you with an application to a District Judge at a minimum unrecoverable cost of £100 and additional enforcement agent's charges.

Respond
But to whom and how? IMO you want to convey the impression that this is all a complete surprise to you, therefore you would get back to the authority. The reason I suggest copying to the debt collector and TEC is because as regards the former it's polite and informative, why would you want to be aggressive or antagonistic? As regards the latter, if the authority were to apply for a warrant then you have a marker in your file which shows you to be a responsible but confused motorist.

You cannot submit an OOT at present because TEC have no role to play or decision to make, the authority are acting extra-procedurally. And you have no route to adjudication.

Realistic expectations.
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sandygarg
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 10:06
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 10:20) *
Background: they have your details and can now serve notices.

Consider your options:
Do nothing
In which case the 'debt collector' would after much huffing and puffing ultimately get back to their client. The authority's only options then would be to apply for a warrant or drop matters. You have no control or influence here. If they apply for a warrant then where would this leave you? You'd have to file an OOT application which would certainly be contested by the authority against a backdrop of someone who clearly ignores all correspondence. Probable outcome, TEC refuse your application which would leave you with an application to a District Judge at a minimum unrecoverable cost of £100 and additional enforcement agent's charges.

Respond
But to whom and how? IMO you want to convey the impression that this is all a complete surprise to you, therefore you would get back to the authority. The reason I suggest copying to the debt collector and TEC is because as regards the former it's polite and informative, why would you want to be aggressive or antagonistic? As regards the latter, if the authority were to apply for a warrant then you have a marker in your file which shows you to be a responsible but confused motorist.

You cannot submit an OOT at present because TEC have no role to play or decision to make, the authority are acting extra-procedurally. And you have no route to adjudication.

Realistic expectations.


Many thanks for explaining the options, appreciate it.

With regards to "You cannot submit an OOT at present because TEC have no role to play or decision to make, the authority are acting extra-procedurally. And you have no route to adjudication.", When I called TEC on last 2 occasions, they advised me to fill PEs forms (TEC email me the PE2 and PE3 forms) and email it to them asap, which they will forward to Ealing Council and tell them the PCNs have been challenged.

so I am bit confused why I can not submit an OOT now?

Point NeilB was making that we should not fill the PEs forms now as if we do that Council might re-issue the PCNs and we end up paying 130£ fine (65£ per PCN) and hence do something to write off the fine of 404£ entirely (not sure how this is possible though)
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 10:29
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 11:06) *
do something to write off the fine of 404£ entirely (not sure how this is possible though)

Was the sentence I added in red.
They have had every chance to collect while holding warrants for a whole year.
Bailiffs have no difficulty in finding new addresses.

So what happened here?
I'm gonna guess ---- Ealing applied for warrants, then forgot to allocate a bailiff to them.
Hence, they cocked up and continuing now is unreasonable.


QUOTE (sandygarg @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 09:34) *
so by writing this letter we are advising the authority to re-engage the prescribed procedure i.e. rewinding the process to the PCN stage and "inviting reps within a specified and extended period" and send bailiff etc to recover the cost. sad.gif

No.
If somehow the matter were reset to PCN then payment @£65 per would be available or make reps.
So where do you see bailiffs getting involved?

BUT
@ HCA
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 10:20) *
Background: they have your details and can now serve notices.

Consider your options:
Do nothing
In which case the 'debt collector' would after much huffing and puffing ultimately get back to their client. The authority's only options then would be to apply for a warrant or drop matters.

Re the bold above.

1/. Notices? PCNs? Is it not way too late, i.e. beyond 6 month limit?

2/. Despite what TEC have apparently said I can't find any facility for issue of second warrants.
Extensions, yes (too lete now); new warrants on same debts, no.

I'm in agreement with HCA you should do something and, broadly, that is -

tickle the monkey and see what dance it does.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 11:12


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 11:11
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 11:06) *
With regards to "You cannot submit an OOT at present because TEC have no role to play or decision to make, the authority are acting extra-procedurally. And you have no route to adjudication.", When I called TEC on last 2 occasions, they advised me to fill PEs forms (TEC email me the PE2 and PE3 forms) and email it to them asap, which they will forward to Ealing Council and tell them the PCNs have been challenged.

so I am bit confused why I can not submit an OOT now?

I think I mentioned earlier, the limitations of TEC CS staff.
99% of people phoning them have live warrants against them and bailiffs threatening.
You, in this most unusual situation, have neither. TEC will be as bemused as you and us.

So short answer is, it was all they could think of.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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hcandersen
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 13:07
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OP, TEC have no status in this matter at present. But for the sake of argument, let's say you submitted an OOT application. TEC would always invite the authority to object, so in a way you would be contacting the authority but in a roundabout and opaque manner.

My reference to 'notices' was generic and was intended to capture all legal documents, including notices from bailiffs.

And if you write to the authority and they either cannot apply for a warrant on procedural grounds, or won't, what have you lost?

Up to you. On the basis of what is in evidence think we've exhausted the facts and legal issues.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 13:07
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 14:24
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 14:07) *
On the basis of what is in evidence think we've exhausted the facts and legal issues.

Yup.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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sandygarg
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 16:21
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 15:24) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 14:07) *
On the basis of what is in evidence think we've exhausted the facts and legal issues.

Yup.


Thanks for all the replies.

As per your suggestions, I am going to write the below letter to Ealing Council, TEC and Newlyn. Do I need to change anything in the letter content?


"
Dear Sir/Madam,

PCNs ********* & *********;
VRM *********

I refer to the above and the enclosed letter from your agent, Newlyn, dated 29 August 2017, received by me on 01 Septemeber 2017.

On receipt of the letter, which doesn't even refer to PCNs, I further investigated the matter and have established that the above PCNs (and I assume other notices) were issued by the authority but never received by me. As you can see from this letter, I am not keeping my address a secret and my only objective is to regularise the situation to which end I should be grateful if the authority would re-engage with the prescribed procedure or confirm by return that you will drop this matter, your pursuance of which is long past a time that could be considered reasonable.

I have copied this letter to the Traffic Enforcement Centre and Newlyn to ensure that all parties are aware of the situation.

Yours Sincerely
Sandy
[My address]
"

Ealing Council :
Penalty Charge Notice
Ealing Council, PO Box 46264, Ealing, W5 2UN

TEC:
5th Floor
St Katharine's House
21-27 St Katharine's Street
Northampton
Northamptonshire
NN1 2LH

Newlyn:
Newlyn Debt Collection Ltd
PO Box 933,
Northampton
Northamptonshire
NN1 9DX
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 19:32
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Yep, see what happens.

Just get free certificate of posting, at PO.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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sandygarg
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:00
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 20:32) *
Yep, see what happens.

Just get free certificate of posting, at PO.


you mean proof of posting i.e. receipt of pastage?
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sandygarg
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 08:16
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 11:00) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 20:32) *
Yep, see what happens.

Just get free certificate of posting, at PO.


you mean proof of posting i.e. receipt of pastage?



3 letters posted this morning, lets see what's the response like, if any. Will keep you posted.

Many thanks once again Neil and Hcanderson for the valuable inputs.
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sandygarg
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 08:15
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Hi,

Received the below letter from TEC today along with PE2 and PE3 forms.

Please advice what to do now?

Thanks
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Enceladus
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 09:17
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:46) *
Ok, I managed to speak to TEC just now and according to them there are NO LIVE warrants against those 2 PCNs.

PCNs were authorised by TEC on 3 May 2016 and 7 Jul 2016 and EXPIRED on 3 May 2017 and 7 July 2017.

I suppose you could re-confirm with the TEC that the warrants have expired and have never been re-authorised (sealed) against your current address
Absent live warrants then the bailiff and the Council have no legal power to collect the debts. The letter you have is an out of proper process letter that is intended to intimidate you. It's worth precisely one sheet of junk A4, used at that. It has no legal standing at all.
So to answer your question I wouldn't do anything further.

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:50) *
Searched on Google for a succinct explanation of the difference between a bailiff and a debt collector. This was on the StepChange.org site here.
QUOTE
What's a bailiff?
Nowadays bailiffs are officially called enforcement agents. However, many of us still refer to them as bailiffs.
A bailiff or enforcement agent has legal powers to collect a debt. Some bailiffs work on behalf of private companies, some are self-employed and some work for the council.
Bailiffs collect things such as County Court judgments (CCJs), council tax arrears, parking fines, and child maintenance arrears.
Bailiffs have to legal right to visit your property, and to remove and sell your goods to pay off a debt. These powers mean that these kinds of debts are more of a priority to stay on top of than other debts.

What's a debt collector?
A debt collector works on behalf of a creditor or debt collection agency. They can also be called a doorstep collector or a field agent.
Sometimes a creditor letter will mention having a debt collector visit your home. But the likelihood of this happening is actually quite small.
This could be because collection agents can’t actually take anything from your property like a bailiff can. The most they can do is ask you to make a payment arrangement on the debt. The key word here is ask, not force.



This post has been edited by Enceladus: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 10:04
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sandygarg
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 09:34
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 10:17) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:46) *
Ok, I managed to speak to TEC just now and according to them there are NO LIVE warrants against those 2 PCNs.

PCNs were authorised by TEC on 3 May 2016 and 7 Jul 2016 and EXPIRED on 3 May 2017 and 7 July 2017.


I suppose you could re-confirm with the TEC that the warrants have expired and have never been re-authorised (sealed) against your current address
Absent live warrants then the bailiff and the Council have no legal power to collect the debts. The letter you have is an out of proper process letter that is intended to intimidate you. It's worth precisely one sheet of junk A4, used at that. It has no legal standing at all.
So to answer you question I wouldn't do anything further.


Enceladus,

Many thanks for your reply.

I am now on hold with TEC from last 10 mins and will be confirming about the expiry of PCNs in question.

Cheers
Sandy
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Neil B
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 10:47
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 10:17) *
So to answer your question I wouldn't do anything further.

I agree.

TEC are just repeating the only thing they know, as I explained in post #87.

Your letter was passed to a lowly clerk who has no understanding of the situation.

You should be far more interested in any reply you get from the Council.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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sandygarg
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 14:46
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 11:47) *
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 10:17) *
So to answer your question I wouldn't do anything further.

I agree.

TEC are just repeating the only thing they know, as I explained in post #87.

Your letter was passed to a lowly clerk who has no understanding of the situation.

You should be far more interested in any reply you get from the Council.


Many thanks Neil.
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sandygarg
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:38
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Just received a call from Newlyn re the PCN and debt. I nicely asked them to write to me but she pressed that it must be resolved on the phone. I asked them why, she said because writing letters causes delays and If I wont talk to her NOW then matter will go to court and people will come to visit my address and take my personal belongings etc to recover the debt.

She then forcefully started asking me to confirm my address and other details, which I refused to give. I had to disconnect the phone as I was at work and couldn't talk for too long.

Received text message from NEWLYN just now
"To PREVENT COURT ACTION which can result in either a WARRANT OF CONTROL BEING ISSUED, CCJ, ATTACHMENT TO EARNINGS OR BENEFITS or BANKRUPTCY, call NEWLYN urgently on 01604 625130, Do not text."

please advise what shall I do now?

This post has been edited by sandygarg: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:47
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John U.K.
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:53
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QUOTE
please advise....


Hopefully Neil B will pick up on this. Have you contacted Bailiff Online?

http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:54
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