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NOTICE OF APPOINTMENT AS DEBT COLLECTORS
sandygarg
post Sat, 2 Sep 2017 - 19:13
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Dear Sir,

I was shocked to received a letter from the debt collector company with total outstanding amount as 392.00£ sad.gif, the details of this letter is as follows

"
Client: London borough of ealing
Contravention date: 01/12/2015
VRM: ******* (this is the VRM of my vehicle)
Location: The broadway/ herbert Road Southall 818

We have been instructed by the London borough of ealing to recover the above parking charges which remain outstanding.

PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER. FURTHER ACTION MAY BE TAKEN AT CONSIDERABLE COST TO YOU IF THE DEBT IS NOT CLEARED.
"

the letter is just one page without any further details of the PCN and contravention date is 08/12/2015. I had never received any other letter from London Borough Of Ealing and I am totally confused what shall I do now. The debt company is asking a heft charge of 392 and there is no way I can pay that, even my car is even less than that.

Please advise what shall I do, how can I challenge this letter and PCN etc.

Many Thanks
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post Sat, 2 Sep 2017 - 19:13
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peterguk
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 14:58
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:38) *
I need to contact Ealing council and find out to which address they sent the original PCN.


The address on the V5C at the time.

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:51) *
I moved home in Dec 2015 and did not change the address on V5C until Feb 2016 and I assume they might have sent the original PCN to the old address.


Presumably no mail forwarding service was used.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:03


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sandygarg
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 14:58
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see attached pics of PCNs found from https://ealing.xrxpsc.com/OCM/

I will be back in an hour as need to rush for the groceries, shops will be closing down in an hr sad.gif

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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:00
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:58) *
see attached pics of PCNs found from https://ealing.xrxpsc.com/OCM/

As I said, NOT important right now.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:12
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 15:38) *
They are due to visit my property on 18th Sep 2017 to take my car away sad.gif
I'll come back to that in a while

Surprisingly Ealing council gave Newlyn my current address but why on earth they never sent any PCN to my current address.
First bit is interesting. Second is not; they use the address DVLA gave them and we know that's your fault

As per Newlyn I need to contact Ealing council and find out to which address they sent the original PCN.
Why? You know.

I'll give you a list of questions to ask TEC in a mo.

Then we'll start getting you prepared to complete applications to the Court to overturn these.

Next hour or so.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Enceladus
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 16:10
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QUOTE (lashes1984 @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 06:53) *
The OP didn't make them up as they are on the top right hand corner of the doc that was posted.

Looking at the location I think it's possibly a MTC (No entry or YBJ) which would explain the amount.

OK so they're moving traffic. However the notice sent to the OP still does not add up.

£130=Penalty Charge
£65=Charge Certificate uplift
£7=Traffic Enforcement Centre registration
£202=sub-total=amount demanded per PCN

But we are beyond that stage. So there should be an additional "Compliance Stage" fee of £75 per PCN. That gets the total to £277 per PCN.
And possibly there is an additional "Enforcement Stage" fee of £235, if they have already made an enforcement visit.

Hence I would expect them to be demanding at least £544 and more likely £789.
Unless of course there is only one PCN in which case I would expect the demand to be for £512.

As advised already please ring the TEC first thing in the morning. You need to try and establish how many PCNs there are, the PCN number(s) and the dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC? And whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address. In the past I have found the TEC cooperative, even if you don't have the PCN numbers. You just need to give them the RK name, the address that was recorded with the DVLA at the time and the VRM, they can do a search. But sometimes you luck out and they won't give you the details without the PCN numbers, so keep trying.


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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 16:43
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:10) *
QUOTE (lashes1984 @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 06:53) *
The OP didn't make them up as they are on the top right hand corner of the doc that was posted.

Looking at the location I think it's possibly a MTC (No entry or YBJ) which would explain the amount.

OK so they're moving traffic. However the notice sent to the OP still does not add up.

£130=Penalty Charge
£65=Charge Certificate uplift
£7=Traffic Enforcement Centre registration
£202=sub-total=amount demanded per PCN

But we are beyond that stage. So there should be an additional "Compliance Stage" fee of £75 per PCN. That gets the total to £277 per PCN.
Erm, hence we've queried why not and yes, that it's odd and why
And possibly there is an additional "Enforcement Stage" fee of £235, if they have already made an enforcement visit.
Today's phone call suggests they haven't.

Unless of course there is only one PCN in which case I would expect the demand to be for £512.
Which we've established there isn't.


QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:10) *
As advised already please ring the TEC first thing in the morning. You need to try and establish how many PCNs there are, the PCN number(s) and the dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC? And whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address. In the past I have found the TEC cooperative, even if you don't have the PCN numbers. You just need to give them the RK name, the address that was recorded with the DVLA at the time and the VRM, they can do a search. But sometimes you luck out and they won't give you the details without the PCN numbers, so keep trying.

Agree with the first but not the blue.
I have no idea why you think there are more than two PCNs when we have no indication of that?

Please also ask the dates each PCN was registered as a debt.

If there are live warrants and it seems so, ask TEC to e-mail you the appropriate forms to complete.
These should be PE3 and PE2.
DO NOT try to complete them without input from us.

Meanwhile, you have some work to do.
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:51) *
Yes, you are right, I moved home in Dec 2015 and did not change the address on V5C until Feb 2016


When, precisely/

FULL timescale:
Moved from ------------ (keep to yourself; you need not us) - evidence?
To ------------ (same) - evidence?
Wrote to DVLA ?
DVLA updated details on? (see 'docref' on V5C)

and, if you can get through to Ealing tomorrow, the dates the PCNs were issued (sent) (you only have contravention
dates so far)


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sandygarg
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:01
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So the questions I need to ask TEC are as (are these the right numbers for TEC ? 0300 123 1059 or 01604 619 450):

How many PCNs there are - we already know there are TWO PCNs
The PCN number(s) - Newlyn already gave me the PCN numbers for both
The dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC
Whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address.
the dates each PCN was registered as a debt.
If there are live warrants and it seems so - Newlyn told me that these are live warrants

Ask TEC to e-mail the appropriate forms to complete (is this to challenge the decision?).

Ask DVLA when they updated my details on their records? (see 'docref' on V5C - 'docref' says: 11 digit number "12 10 16") - does it mean they updated my details on 12th Oct 2016?

Ask Ealing council when the PCNs were issued and sent to me and at which address?
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peterguk
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:45
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:01) *
Ask DVLA when they updated my details on their records? (see 'docref' on V5C - 'docref' says: 11 digit number "12 10 16") - does it mean they updated my details on 12th Oct 2016?


Correct.

Which doesn't agree with your earlier starement:

QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 20:51) *
I did not change the address on V5C until Feb 2016


So you actually updated your V5C around September/October 2016, not February.


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sandygarg
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:53
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:45) *
So you actually updated your V5C around September/October 2016, not February.


well my understanding was that I asked DVLA to change my address even before I moved in BUT I can not see any email to/from DVLA confirming when I asked DVLA to update my address sad.gif

what do you think is there any chance of me to overturn their decision ? I am really stressed .............

This post has been edited by sandygarg: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:53
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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 19:12
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:53) *
I am really stressed .............

Understood but it doesn't help.
The detail we are looking at gives you a better chance of resolving this.

You haven't answered -
When you moved? etc.
Mail redirection?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Enceladus
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 19:20
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:43) *
I have no idea why you think there are more than two PCNs when we have no indication of that?

I didn't say there might be more than two PCNs. The Newlyn letter has two differing reference numbers apparently relating to separate demands of £202 for a total of £404.
My point was that those numbers don't make sense, given the stage of enforcement we are at.

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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 19:20
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:01) *
So the questions I need to ask TEC are as (are these the right numbers for TEC ? 0300 123 1059 or 01604 619 450):
Yes. Be patient, they will answer.

How many PCNs there are - we already know there are TWO PCNs

The PCN number(s) - Newlyn already gave me the PCN numbers for both
No, you need to state the PCN numbers to TEC
The dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC

Whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address.

the dates each PCN was registered as a debt.

If there are live warrants and it seems so - Newlyn told me that these are live warrants

Ask TEC to e-mail the appropriate forms to complete (is this to challenge the decision?).
Yes, sort of; wrong terminology. There has been no 'decision'.


Ask Ealing council when the PCNs were issued and sent to me and at which address?


This post has been edited by Neil B: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 19:46


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 19:37
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:20) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:43) *
I have no idea why you think there are more than two PCNs when we have no indication of that?

I didn't say there might be more than two PCNs. The Newlyn letter has two differing reference numbers apparently relating to separate demands of £202 for a total of £404.
My point was that those numbers don't make sense, given the stage of enforcement we are at.

As was said a while back.
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Sep 2017 - 21:17) *
Ok, now it makes sense -

-- and it's very odd at the same time.

That's TWO PCNs.

So, although Newlyns are bailiffs, they are acting only as debt collectors in this, SO FAR.

I'm as curious as you but that notice is what we have, nothing more.

--
I'm stuck on a question I think you will know the answer to Enceladus:

Term of warrant.
Previously 12 months - from CPR 75.7 (5) and (6). Both now firmly scored through?

Has it been replaced with 9(1) of the 2013 Regs or am I misunderstanding?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 19:55
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:45) *
So you actually updated your V5C around September/October 2016, not February.

Which in this case has no bearing on whether he could have made an in-time Stat Dec.

Even for the latter 2/1/16 contravention, a PCN issued shortly after would be unlikely to
go to his new address even if he had updated very promptly.

Another 'unlucky coincidence of timing', giving him a decent chance.

Even better if he ever tells us the date he moved - I've asked twice.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sandygarg
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:39
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:55) *
Even better if he ever tells us the date he moved - I've asked twice.


20th Dec 2015

I can't handle this stress......my car is not worth more than 300£, shall I simply let them take away the car and be happy with it ?

This post has been edited by sandygarg: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:41
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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:40
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 21:32) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:55) *
Even better if he ever tells us the date he moved - I've asked twice.


20th Dec 2015

Great.
That couldn't be much better.

I'm out soon.

I'll explain further later.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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Incandescent
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:46
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 21:39) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:55) *
Even better if he ever tells us the date he moved - I've asked twice.


20th Dec 2015

I can't handle this stress......my car is not worth more than 300£, shall I simply let them take away the car and be happy with it ?

So taking your car away and selling it won't clear the debt. This means you'll still be liable for the amount of the debt that remains. People think that because the car got the PCN the car is what will be taken if bailiffs come round. Well, yes, they will take possessions that are easy to seize like a car, but can seize anything else to sell as well. So you won't be happy if they take the car as they can still collect more possessions off you, and each visit is charged for, so they can seize an awful lot before the debt is cleared to sell to pay themselves and the money owed to the council.

So fight on !

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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 20:52
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Well, sorry if getting together the detail is stressing you but we're helping you to follow
your only option. All will become clear.

Many Councils can be unreasonable, including Ealing but

we won a similar case just last week and they were surprisingly helpful.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 21:02
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OP, listen to what you are being told and do not go off on flights of fancy about what you think is important e.g. did you commit the contraventions etc. You're in the firing line because you're the owner, the driver is irrelevant for the purposes of these proceedings.

You came to us.

We are advising.

Follow the advice would be my suggestion.

So at last you've engaged with the process and discovered that 2 PCNs were apparently issued for these offences. This is real progress.

Next question: did you receive any of the formal notices from the authority? Apparently not.
Were they issued? Apparently so, but we don't know, we haven't seen them. For the sake of argument, let's assume they were issued.
Were they served? Yes, this is presumed.
Did you receive them? No.
So what can you do?
Apply to make out of time statutory declarations to TEC. This is the next logical step IMO, not contacting the council. Apart from anything else, it stays the enforcement process until your request is considered which buys us all time.
Get on to the TEC website and download the stat dec and out of time forms.
Also, did you put in place mail re-direction arrangements OF ANY KIND when you moved?

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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 21:32
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Nice summary from HCA.

Can I just comment on one aspect.
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 22:02) *
not contacting the council.

My thinking there, on the off-chance he can actually speak to anyone, is that the posting dates of the
PCNs are very relevant to not being received and help us compile a comprehensive OOT and evidence
the impossibility of receipt.

I agree the OOT itself is the priority though.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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