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Loading Bay Ticket - Camden
bm_99
post Sun, 27 Sep 2020 - 11:23
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Morning all,

Story is was parked in a loading bay which only shows the times MON-SAT 10AM-12PM

Was working in the shop opposite and was loading and unloading various tools and equipment then started working and honestly forgot about the timings and left the car longer than i should have. Even worse all the other spaces are free to park on sat and sun.

Also my boot lid on the van is broked to it doesnt stay up unless i wedge it so they couldnt have known i wasnt loading / unloading and also i would not leave it fully up as of tools in there anyway in case that helps. Van was unlocked aswell and have a job sheet showing the work and etc..

Says the officer observed from 10.01 to 10.54, whats funny is when i moved the van after the ticket of course another van came and parked from like 11 to11.45 ish, Sods law

Any help in fighting this plz

Thanks, all





This post has been edited by bm_99: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 - 11:25
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post Sun, 27 Sep 2020 - 11:23
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stamfordman
post Sun, 27 Sep 2020 - 12:01
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here?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5510271,-0....6384!8i8192

Sounds like you don't have a case. You can hardly complain about the length of observation.

See what council pics are available.
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bm_99
post Sun, 27 Sep 2020 - 13:47
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 27 Sep 2020 - 13:01) *
here?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5510271,-0....6384!8i8192

Yes mate

But it also doesnt say how long you can be parked there for?

Just because the bootlid is down doesnt mean your not loading right?
Sounds like you don't have a case. You can hardly complain about the length of observation.

See what council pics are available.

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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 27 Sep 2020 - 16:16
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You can make a case if you want to, it is highly unlikely that the observation was continuous, just that the CEO noted your car on his first round and then came back and it was still there.

If you are to make a case remember you can't just say I was loding but you must present enough evidence to convince an adjudicator ( because it will go that far) that on the balance of probabilities you were doing as you say


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bm_99
post Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 10:37
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 27 Sep 2020 - 17:16) *
You can make a case if you want to, it is highly unlikely that the observation was continuous, just that the CEO noted your car on his first round and then came back and it was still there.

If you are to make a case remember you can't just say I was loding but you must present enough evidence to convince an adjudicator ( because it will go that far) that on the balance of probabilities you were doing as you say



Would a job sheet showing what i was there to do help?
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cp8759
post Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 15:44
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 27 Sep 2020 - 17:16) *
If you are to make a case remember you can't just say I was loding but you must present enough evidence to convince an adjudicator ( because it will go that far) that on the balance of probabilities you were doing as you say

But the OP has stated they weren't loading the whole time, they finished unloading, started work and just forgot about the van being in a loading bay, so the contravention is banged-to-rights.


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bm_99
post Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 18:45
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 16:44) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 27 Sep 2020 - 17:16) *
If you are to make a case remember you can't just say I was loding but you must present enough evidence to convince an adjudicator ( because it will go that far) that on the balance of probabilities you were doing as you say

But the OP has stated they weren't loading the whole time, they finished unloading, started work and just forgot about the van being in a loading bay, so the contravention is banged-to-rights.


shouldn't there be a time limit on the sign?
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cp8759
post Tue, 29 Sep 2020 - 17:38
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QUOTE (bm_99 @ Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 19:45) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 16:44) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 27 Sep 2020 - 17:16) *
If you are to make a case remember you can't just say I was loding but you must present enough evidence to convince an adjudicator ( because it will go that far) that on the balance of probabilities you were doing as you say

But the OP has stated they weren't loading the whole time, they finished unloading, started work and just forgot about the van being in a loading bay, so the contravention is banged-to-rights.


shouldn't there be a time limit on the sign?

If there's no time-limit then you can stay there for as long as is necessary to complete the loading / unloading.


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bm_99
post Mon, 23 Nov 2020 - 17:34
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Evening people, so update on this:

1) sent appeal through on the basis that i wasnt parked there for the full period they think and i did leave and come back with more items to load and unload

2) Appeal was rejected on the 13th october

3) recieved a NTO on 17th November


Do i now need to wait for this to expire before appealing to PATAS?

Thanks, all
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John U.K.
post Mon, 23 Nov 2020 - 18:07
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QUOTE (bm_99 @ Mon, 23 Nov 2020 - 18:34) *
Evening people, so update on this:

1) sent appeal through on the basis that i wasnt parked there for the full period they think and i did leave and come back with more items to load and unload
Not an appeal (that's for the Tribunal). Post up here a copy of your challenge
2) Appeal was rejected on the 13th october
Post up here a copy of their rejection
3) recieved a NTO on 17th November
Post up here a copy of all sides of the NtO


Do i now need to wait for this to expire before appealing to PATAS?

It's now London Tribunals, not PaTAS. The route to LT is to make formal representations in response to the NtO. If your reps are refused, you will be sent with the rejection the forms to appeal to LT

Thanks, all


Date of NtO? Use an external hosting site such as https://imgbb.com/ or https://imgur.com/ to host images and post BBcodes or links here. (Very limited attachment space here.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 23 Nov 2020 - 18:23
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Just to back up what John says - you must make reps against the NTO. Or pay it.
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cp8759
post Wed, 25 Nov 2020 - 15:46
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QUOTE (bm_99 @ Mon, 23 Nov 2020 - 17:34) *
Do i now need to wait for this to expire before appealing to PATAS?

Actually read the NTO, all of it, it explains things quite clearly. Short version is, you must make representations or pay before the 28 days are up. If you do neither, you can lose the right to appeal and the charge can go up to £195.


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bm_99
post Wed, 25 Nov 2020 - 20:29
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Ok guys, following is:

My Appeal -

I write to appeal the PCN dated 26 September 2020 which was issued for parking in a loading place or bay during restricted hours without loading. The PCN further states that I was observed from 10:01am - 10:54am. 
I was parked in this loading bay as I was unloading my vehicle for a job that I was attending to nearby. Understandably, I did not leave my boot lid open during this entire time, as I would unload on site before returning to the vehicle for further unloading, and did not wish for my possessions to be stolen which has happened in the past. In any event, one of my boot struts is broken and therefore the boot does not remain open without it being propped open constantly please see the attached picture showing this. At no time in the 53 minutes stated above did I see a Civil Enforcement Officer observing whether I was unloading or loading, . Once I had stopped loading, I was due to move my car to a free parking bay. 
The observations state that I was observed from 10.01 - 10.54, during this time I actually left the bay to go and collect more items for my job and was away for approx 30-40 mins then I got back and luckily the loading bay had 1 free space available for me to carry on my unloading.
I therefore seek to appeal this PCN on the basis that I was, in fact, loading, and at the times where I appeared not to be loading at my vehicle, I was unloading on site before returning to my vehicle. At no time did I utilise the loading bay as a parking bay, nor would I do so. 



Their rejection

Contravention code: 25
Parked in a loading place or bay during restricted hours without loading

Thank you for your letter received on 07/10/2020.
I understand that you are contesting the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) because you were
loading/unloading at the time of the contravention, but I have decided to enforce the Notice.
The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed your vehicle for 52 minutes parked in a loading
bay and did not see any evidence of loading/unloading taking place. You have stated that you
were loading/unloading at the time of the contravention. Regrettably, based on the information
available I do not believe that there are sufficient grounds on which to base the cancellation of
the charge.

The CEO first observed the vehicle at 10:01 and made a note of the vehicle's tyre valve
positions. The CEO later returned at 10:54 and noted that the tyre valve positions had not
changed. During their observation period the CEO specifically notes that the driver of the
vehicle was not seen and that there were no signs of loading/unloading taking place.

Loading bays are located in areas where there is a need for delivery or collection of goods.
Only vehicles parked for the purpose of loading/unloading may use this bay. As parking in this
bay affects the ability for local businesses/residents to receive deliveries I am enforcing this
PCN

Given the above I am satisfied a contravention occurred. I have reset the discount charge for
14 days from the date of this letter and will accept payment of £65.00 in settlement if received
during that time. After this period the charge will revert to £130.00.

You can pay this charge online at camden.gov.uk/pay or you can contact our 24 hour
automated payment line on 020 7974 6104.

If you choose not to make payment we will send the registered keeper of the vehicle a Notice
to Owner. This statutory document explains the grounds on which the registered keeper of the
vehicle can make formal representations against the issuing of the PCN. I must make clear that
the discount period for payment will have expired by the time a Notice to Owner is issued, and
the charge will have reverted to the £130.00.

Please also be advised that if the council does reject any formal representations that are made
by the registered keeper of the vehicle the registered keeper will have the option of appealing
to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators who are an independent adjudication service


NTO









Thanks, all
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cp8759
post Fri, 27 Nov 2020 - 11:22
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OK this should be fairly easy as you appear to have a substantive defence to the allegation, so we can help you put a good representation together without too much difficutly.

Do you have any paperwork confirming the job you were attending? Also can you please describe what you unloaded the first time, where you had to go to get more stuff, what it was you were getting and unloaded the second time round?


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SX4
post Fri, 27 Nov 2020 - 19:02
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In first post the op said he unloaded vehicle and started work and forgot about car until he came out to find PCN.
But in when he sent representation to council he states he left the bay and returned ( which is the correct version) ?
The council replied that valve positions were noted and had not changed, if so that scuppers the ops version of leaving and returning.
But I would be very unusual to note valve positions in a loading bay , it is usually only done in time limited bays.
A loading bay is what it says not unloading and leaving vehicle there whilst working.
The CEO would have logged vehicle in at 10.01 and may have done casual observation which means he carried on patrolling street and logging other vehicles in to hhc whilst keeping an eye on loading bay and then issued PCN at 10.54
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bm_99
post Mon, 7 Dec 2020 - 09:01
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Sorry guys shoudlve have responded sooner to this:

@cp8957 - No paperwork here mate, but i can get something drafted or written up if need be

1st time was unloading some cables, our tools, cameras etc...
2nd time went to get more cable and a ladder i believe

@ sx4 - What i should;ve said is that i forgot it was parked in the bay when i came back the 2nd time for longer than 10 mins but as it was close to the 12pm cut off time i didnt think anything of it, sorry shouldve made it clearer

In regards to the valve positions, i treid looking at each and every pic on their website but nothing shows the wheels with the valves so it cant be rejected on that basis that i did not leave and come back

Funny thing is as i said before the whole road in free on saturdays anyway so could have parked nearby regardless but literally wanted to unload a bit closer

I know this is cutting it fine guys but if i can have some help with drafting an appeal plz would be appreciated as it does need to be sent this week

thanks for any help
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hcandersen
post Mon, 7 Dec 2020 - 09:15
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OP, time is not your friend. You cannot afford to waste the best part of 10 days before replying to posts.

Can I cut to the chase: did you or did you not move your car within the period 10.01 - 10.54?
Where did you go?
Why?
What evidence do you have? This can be hard e.g. receipt etc, or soft e.g. your account etc. I ask you: if you were the adjudicator and an appellant appeared in front of you with your story - that you moved - then what evidence would you expect them to produce and would you be persuaded by an uncorroborated account?

The 28-day window for making reps closes on 14th Dec.
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bm_99
post Mon, 7 Dec 2020 - 10:23
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 7 Dec 2020 - 09:15) *
OP, time is not your friend. You cannot afford to waste the best part of 10 days before replying to posts.

Can I cut to the chase: did you or did you not move your car within the period 10.01 - 10.54?
Where did you go?
Why?
What evidence do you have? This can be hard e.g. receipt etc, or soft e.g. your account etc. I ask you: if you were the adjudicator and an appellant appeared in front of you with your story - that you moved - then what evidence would you expect them to produce and would you be persuaded by an uncorroborated account?

The 28-day window for making reps closes on 14th Dec.


Totally agree mate, i shouldve repsonded sooner just a lot going on with work etc.. it slipped my mind

I def did leave i can say that, but only to go somwhere local to a colleague to get couple of bits as i said above. Nothing like a reciept or anything really that i can provide

Possibly can ask my customer to say "he did leave for approx 20 mins or so" if that helps

I do agree with your assessment in regards to evidence but when i originally sent the appeal they didnt even acknowlesdge the fact that i cant leave by boot open due to the strut being broken or fear or things being stolen etc..

As you said I do not have a lot of time so any help would be appreciated as i definetley do not want to fork out £130 espeically this close to christmas

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cp8759
post Tue, 8 Dec 2020 - 17:44
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In your appeal you said "I was parked in this loading bay as I was unloading my vehicle for a job that I was attending to nearby", what was the job? Presumably the customer was billed / invoiced for this work?


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bm_99
post Tue, 8 Dec 2020 - 20:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 8 Dec 2020 - 17:44) *
In your appeal you said "I was parked in this loading bay as I was unloading my vehicle for a job that I was attending to nearby", what was the job? Presumably the customer was billed / invoiced for this work?



yes they were mate, but nothing from the customer has been signed if that makes sense. Only our invoice been sent to them
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