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rd250dx
post Thu, 18 Mar 2021 - 17:19
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post Thu, 18 Mar 2021 - 17:19
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southpaw82
post Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 15:48
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 15:31) *
I think we both know the legal definition differs from a more descriptive definition.

Well what do you think a riot is then? And what activity in your description isn’t adequately covered by the existing criminal law?


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TMC Towcester
post Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 18:35
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 15:48) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 15:31) *
I think we both know the legal definition differs from a more descriptive definition.

Well what do you think a riot is then? And what activity in your description isn’t adequately covered by the existing criminal law?


Legally? I thought it was above a certain number using violence or threatening? Causing fear?

A riot in common parlance relates to more general civil disorder which could just be smashing stuff up.................or pulling down statues, damaging public property etc?
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southpaw82
post Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 18:52
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 18:35) *
A riot in common parlance relates to more general civil disorder which could just be smashing stuff up.................or pulling down statues, damaging public property etc?

And all of those are already offences, aren’t they?


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TMC Towcester
post Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 13:14
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 18:52) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 18:35) *
A riot in common parlance relates to more general civil disorder which could just be smashing stuff up.................or pulling down statues, damaging public property etc?

And all of those are already offences, aren’t they?


Someone doesn't think so or the new laws would be totally nugatory? I know governments can be pretty stupid but this would be a new low. Why would people be protesting about something that are already offences?

Can they all be wrong?
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southpaw82
post Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 13:31
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 13:14) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 18:52) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 18:35) *
A riot in common parlance relates to more general civil disorder which could just be smashing stuff up.................or pulling down statues, damaging public property etc?

And all of those are already offences, aren’t they?


Someone doesn't think so or the new laws would be totally nugatory? I know governments can be pretty stupid but this would be a new low. Why would people be protesting about something that are already offences?

Can they all be wrong?

That doesn’t really answer the question though. It seems that what the government wants to be able to do is preemptively ban certain forms of protest rather than rely on existing laws to deal with them when they take place. Whether that’s a good idea in a free and democratic society is a matter of opinion. However, the Bill is drawn widely enough that many forms of protest not currently criminalised are at risk of being banned.


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TMC Towcester
post Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 14:02
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 13:31) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 13:14) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 18:52) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 18:35) *
A riot in common parlance relates to more general civil disorder which could just be smashing stuff up.................or pulling down statues, damaging public property etc?

And all of those are already offences, aren’t they?


Someone doesn't think so or the new laws would be totally nugatory? I know governments can be pretty stupid but this would be a new low. Why would people be protesting about something that are already offences?

Can they all be wrong?

That doesn’t really answer the question though. It seems that what the government wants to be able to do is preemptively ban certain forms of protest rather than rely on existing laws to deal with them when they take place. Whether that’s a good idea in a free and democratic society is a matter of opinion. However, the Bill is drawn widely enough that many forms of protest not currently criminalised are at risk of being banned.


I'm fine with that - but the law and the application of the law aren't always congruent...............
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southpaw82
post Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 14:06
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 14:02) *
I'm fine with that - but the law and the application of the law aren't always congruent...............

And I think that’s the problem. Parliament (or the government) may have in mind exactly what it wants to ban. How the powers will be exercised in the future is beyond its control.


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DancingDad
post Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 14:13
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 13:14) *
.......... Why would people be protesting about something that are already offences?

Can they all be wrong?


Hmmmmm....
Many will be having a knee jerk reaction, many will be objecting because it is the Tories putting it forward, many because they like to protest, many because they have been told "it's bad" and believe it, some may actually have read the bill and believe some or all of it is bad, taking that people are protesting as a yardstick on the worth of the bill is a little like believing all that is put on tinternet.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 21:33
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Even the Telegraph isn't happy with the bill clamping down on protest freedom, which should tell you how bad it is. They don't say, but I'm sure they are happy with other parts of the bill, such as targeting travellers.
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roythebus
post Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 21:45
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 15:31) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 12:17) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 08:12) *
No. I lasted 1m40s.

Also, don't really see a problem when 99.99% of the population do not protest at all, never have and never will.....................so couldn't care less. However, a law which aims to curtail the actions of the 0.01% who want to destroy public property (and that of the 99.9%), consume police, ambulance, fire officers cost and time etc, is fine by me.

A vigil in memory of someone is unlikely to be affected. A riot? Great, quell it.

Firstly, it is far more than 0.01%.

Secondly, a basic understanding of history and geopolitics will tell you the consequences of progressive restrictions on freedom to protest. Protest was allowed and even rarely successful in the Nazi Germany such as Rosenstrasse. If you aren't able to protest then you're essentially giving the goverent a blank cheque every five years.


Really? I recall about 1% turned out (claimed) for a anti war thing a few years back, but recent ones haven't been anywhere that that large? Happy to see the figures - but nit picking aside the vast majority either see no need, no benefit or CBA - fact!

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 12:42) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sat, 20 Mar 2021 - 08:12) *
A riot? Great, quell it.

Riot is already an offence, so why are new restrictions required?


I think we both know the legal definition differs from a more descriptive definition.
I'd point you towards the women' Protest a few years ago which was attended by over 350,000 people, and the anti-brexit rally attended by an estimated million people with very few or no arrests. compare those events to the average football match (pre-covid) or UKIP/pro brexit rallies where there's been multiple arrests. Which ones will the Home Secretary deem disruptive? I think I know which ones.

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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 22:39
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The Good Law project has an IMO excellent summary of the bill, including a pertinent quote from Tabernacle vs SoS for Defence.

QUOTE
Rights worth having are unruly things. Demonstrations and protests are liable to be a nuisance. They are liable to be inconvenient and tiresome, or at least perceived as such by others who are out of sympathy with them.


It also points out that police can set conditions if a protest is having "impact". It is somewhat farcical to ask a protest organiser to ensure their protest does not have "impact".

https://goodlawproject.org/news/pcsc-bill-briefing-for-mps/

Additionally the common law public nuisance is now converted into a statutory offence with a maximum ten year prison sentence. It is the responsibility of the defendant to prove they had "reasonable excuse" for their actions, not the CPS.

The ultimate outcome will be to have restrictions on protests among the most restrictive among peer nations, in a country which has relatively few issues with extreme or violent protests. And it will only target organised protests. Those smashing up a police station in Bristol whilst impotent cops film with their phones are highly unlikely to be asking the police for permission to set fire to a police van in advance.
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TMC Towcester
post Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 08:36
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 21 Mar 2021 - 22:39) *
The Good Law project has an IMO excellent summary of the bill, including a pertinent quote from Tabernacle vs SoS for Defence.

QUOTE
Rights worth having are unruly things. Demonstrations and protests are liable to be a nuisance. They are liable to be inconvenient and tiresome, or at least perceived as such by others who are out of sympathy with them.


It also points out that police can set conditions if a protest is having "impact". It is somewhat farcical to ask a protest organiser to ensure their protest does not have "impact".

https://goodlawproject.org/news/pcsc-bill-briefing-for-mps/

Additionally the common law public nuisance is now converted into a statutory offence with a maximum ten year prison sentence. It is the responsibility of the defendant to prove they had "reasonable excuse" for their actions, not the CPS.

The ultimate outcome will be to have restrictions on protests among the most restrictive among peer nations, in a country which has relatively few issues with extreme or violent protests. And it will only target organised protests. Those smashing up a police station in Bristol whilst impotent cops film with their phones are highly unlikely to be asking the police for permission to set fire to a police van in advance.


So let's let them act as they please? The majority of folk in the Uk would prefer a more 'European' solution...............
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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 10:21
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 08:36) *
So let's let them act as they please? The majority of folk in the Uk would prefer a more 'European' solution...............

There are already restrictions on protests. I don't see the need for more. And yes, if you want a free society rather than Chinese-style forced compliance then you have to accept protests will cause some disruption.

Otherwise with social media and encrypted messaging all that will happen is there will be non-organised protests with no planning or marshaling. It is trivially easy to whip up a few hundred people to give the police a kicking.

I highly doubt the police would want it anyway. In Bristol there were two minor injuries - a broken arm and collapsed lung. Just in the gilet jaunes protests there have been over 1,000 police injured. It's not risk free.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 10:44
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 08:36) *
So let's let them act as they please?

By “act as they please” do you mean “within the existing law” (as they’re entitled to do)? What activities do you foresee in protests covered by the Bill that can’t already be dealt with by the existing law?


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cp8759
post Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 10:48
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 10:44) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 08:36) *
So let's let them act as they please?

By “act as they please” do you mean “within the existing law” (as they’re entitled to do)? What activities do you foresee in protests covered by the Bill that can’t already be dealt with by the existing law?

Well it might simply have been a failure of the police to effectively use existing tools, but I do recall the met were unable to deal with XR last summer in an effective manner. It should be possible to find a balance where protesters can have their voices heard, but by and large the public can go about its lawful business. What XR did was more akin to direct action against the general public.


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TMC Towcester
post Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 12:28
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 10:44) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 08:36) *
So let's let them act as they please?

By “act as they please” do you mean “within the existing law” (as they’re entitled to do)? What activities do you foresee in protests covered by the Bill that can’t already be dealt with by the existing law?


I'll invert the question:

If the answer is 'none' what are some people getting so agitated about?
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southpaw82
post Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 13:08
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 12:28) *
I'll invert the question:

If the answer is 'none' what are some people getting so agitated about?

I'd rather you just answered the question. After all, the answer seems to be that basis upon which further restrictions on liberty are to be applied, so it seems incumbent upon those proposing those restrictions to justify them, rather than the other way around.


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TMC Towcester
post Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 13:25
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 13:08) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 12:28) *
I'll invert the question:

If the answer is 'none' what are some people getting so agitated about?

I'd rather you just answered the question. After all, the answer seems to be that basis upon which further restrictions on liberty are to be applied, so it seems incumbent upon those proposing those restrictions to justify them, rather than the other way around.


I guess you'd better ask those proposing then? I couldn't care one way or the other, but if there are further restrictions (I'm not a saddo sufficient to analyse and compare), that's fine by me. I don't need comparisons ans can't comprehend how something that changes nothing is so emotive.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 13:46
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 13:25) *
I don't need comparisons ans can't comprehend how something that changes nothing is so emotive.

I suspect much of the angst is about a shift to seeking to prevent protest preemptively on the basis that it might (according to a politician) cause disruption etc. One can easily see how such a power might be abused to prevent protests that are politically inconvenient.


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cp8759
post Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 13:49
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 13:46) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 22 Mar 2021 - 13:25) *
I don't need comparisons ans can't comprehend how something that changes nothing is so emotive.

I suspect much of the angst is about a shift to seeking to prevent protest preemptively on the basis that it might (according to a politician) cause disruption etc. One can easily see how such a power might be abused to prevent protests that are politically inconvenient.

Fair point, but would you not agree that something needs to be done to prevent the sort of disruption that XR caused in summer 2019?


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