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LEZ penalty charge increase during appeals process
joobny
post Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 15:26
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Hi all,

Hoping I can get some help with an LEZ penalty charge.

Long story short, I drove my van in the LEZ without realising what the LEZ is or that I needed to pay. I received a £500 penalty, increasing to £1,000 if not paid within 28 days. I appealed within 28 days of receiving it which should have frozen the penalty at £500.

TFL rejected my appeal, so I appealed to an independent tribunal. TFL contested my appeal to the independent tribunal, and the adjudicator has ruled in TFL's favour.

When they ruled in TFL's favour, they told me that I am required to pay £1,000.

As much as a £500 penalty for driving in the LEZ is a total joke, it's even more of a joke that it has gone up to £1,000 during this appeals process. At this point I just want to pay the £500 and be done with it, but I'm not sure how I go about doing that when they've decided to ramp it up to £1,000?

I called the independent tribunal the other day and was told I have to speak to TFL. They're closed right now so thought I'd post here first to see if anyone has any advice about what to do in this situation.

Any advice greatly received and appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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post Sun, 22 Jul 2018 - 15:26
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Incandescent
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 16:23
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The review has not yet been completed, but from what TfL say, your vehicle is not exempt based on the DVLA records. So expect a refusal to cancel. I'm not sure what you can do once a decision is made on 10th October.
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joobny
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 09:18
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Yeah, from DVLA records it's not exempt from having to pay an LEZ charge, but the argument here is that they've given a penalty for the wrong class of vehicle. They're saying that the vehicle is class N2, and should be penalised as such. But the evidence that they've referenced, and the V5 that I sent away, states that the vehicle is class N1, which should be penalised a lower amount.

I have until 5th October to have any more input before they make another decision, so if anyone has any suggestions for how to proceed that would be really appreciated! Ideally I wouldn't end up paying anything at all but ultimately I'd rather be given the correct penalty than the incorrect penalty which is double the cost.

This post has been edited by joobny: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 09:18
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disgrunt
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 11:04
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I think it is worth highlighting to the adjudicator that the council’s evidence shows the vehicle is class N1, they specifically say 18(f) applies - this is xlass n1 vehicles and it appears to be a basic mistake on their part they they are refusing to acknowledge in the face of overwhelming evidence.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 11:25
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QUOTE (disgrunt @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 12:04) *
I think it is worth highlighting to the adjudicator that the council’s evidence shows the vehicle is class N1, they specifically say 18(f) applies - this is xlass n1 vehicles and it appears to be a basic mistake on their part they they are refusing to acknowledge in the face of overwhelming evidence.

This is the key thing, they're applying the incorrect penalty for the vehicle and needs emphasising to the adjudicator.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 11:28
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Got a few thing to put but not really got the time ATM please bump the thread at the weekend if you have not heard from me In the meantime take some photos of the weight plate on the vehicle make sure they are clear that they apply to that vehicle


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joobny
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 10:19
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Thanks everyone.

I have a photo of the weight plate on the van but I'm struggling to upload it. It basically says, in this order...

3500kg
6300kg
1- 1600kg
2- 2240kg

And has the VIN written above it.

PASTMYBEST - would appreciate your comments when you have the time to add them! All help much appreciated. Thanks again!
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 11:30
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QUOTE (joobny @ Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 11:19) *
Thanks everyone.

I have a photo of the weight plate on the van but I'm struggling to upload it. It basically says, in this order...

3500kg
6300kg
1- 1600kg
2- 2240kg

And has the VIN written above it.

PASTMYBEST - would appreciate your comments when you have the time to add them! All help much appreciated. Thanks again!


so what do those relate to very much the 6300kg


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joobny
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 15:02
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I asked the same question on Pistonheads at the time that I took the photo. The answer I received was...

Max gross weight van only is 3500
Max gross weight of van plus trailer is 6300
Front axle max weight 1600
Rear axle max weight 2240

(It wasn't towing a trailer at the time of the contravention)
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joobny
post Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 09:36
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I'm away this week before the deadline of 5th to add any further comments, so I'm going to reply today drawing attention to the fact that TfL have used evidence which also states the van is class N1.

Thanks again for your help - if anyone has any further comments then they're always appreciated!

Will update with how it goes...
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 15:44
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OP

Complete this form, its a vehicle checker. I did it using van type and it came back that your van complied try it with the reg and let use know what it says


https://tfl.gov.uk/forms/16063.aspx


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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 16:07
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 16:44) *
OP

Complete this form, its a vehicle checker. I did it using van type and it came back that your van complied try it with the reg and let use know what it says


https://tfl.gov.uk/forms/16063.aspx



just been re reading, Stamfordman has done it. As the van is not registered they have defaulted. send or take a screenshot of each page of the checker searching by vehicle type


make the point that TfL are defaulting to higher penalty amount they should not before serving a penalty on a UK registered vehicle the classification is available to them via DVLA and should be used


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joobny
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 09:40
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Thanks again.

Here is what the website says when I enter the reg...

“The £200 Daily LEZ Charge High is due for this vehicle
According to our records your vehicle is subject to the £200 Daily LEZ Charge High. This could be because your vehicle’s details are registered with us and it doesn’t meet the required Low Emission Zone standards.

If we don’t recognise your vehicle details then the £200 Daily LEZ Charge High automatically applies. (For example, if your vehicle is registered outside the United Kingdom.) If you believe your vehicle does meet the required standards, you will need to register it with us.

Until your vehicle is successfully registered you will need to pay the £200 Daily LEZ Charge High every time you drive it within the zone.”
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 09:52
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QUOTE (joobny @ Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 10:40) *
Thanks again.

Here is what the website says when I enter the reg...

“The £200 Daily LEZ Charge High is due for this vehicle
According to our records your vehicle is subject to the £200 Daily LEZ Charge High. This could be because your vehicle’s details are registered with us and it doesn’t meet the required Low Emission Zone standards.

If we don’t recognise your vehicle details then the £200 Daily LEZ Charge High automatically applies. (For example, if your vehicle is registered outside the United Kingdom.) If you believe your vehicle does meet the required standards, you will need to register it with us.

Until your vehicle is successfully registered you will need to pay the £200 Daily LEZ Charge High every time you drive it within the zone.”


that's just a default position, if you search by vehicle type then it comes back differently, try it. Bottom line the vehicle is classed as N1(ii) and that is the penalty that can apply not the higher one


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joobny
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 09:59
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And here is the response that I emailed across to them yesterday...

“Hi,

Thanks for passing on this information - this email is in response to the adjournment of case with reference *********.

It is made clear that the adjudicator would be grateful for Transport for London's comments on the classification of the vehicle, although for why I am unsure as the classification of the vehicle is what it is and should need no further comment.

TFL have responded back to the comments raised from the adjudicator regarding the V5C registration certificate evidence and have passed these on to myself as well.

TFL state that the vehicle is subject to the LEZ as it falls within one of the vehicle definitions when making reference to the London Low Emission Zome Scheme Order, and in particular Article 4 and the vehicle type definitions found within Annex to to Article 5 of the Scheme Order and para 18© to (h).

The vehicle in question is indeed a Mercedes, first registered in 2002 with a year of manufacture of 2002.

TFL then go on to state that the classification of this vehicle to be N2, and have included evidence in the form of a screen print from the DVLA. However, the evidence that they themselves have included clearly states the 'Vehicle Type Approval' to be class N1 - much like the V5C registration certificate that I included as evidence in my most recent correspondence with London Tribunals.

My original argument for not paying the penalty charge was that it is unreasonable to expect somebody who does not reside in London to be familiar with the LEZ charges and that it is particularly unjust that a first time offender can be slapped with a £1,000 penalty when the only information regarding the LEZ on the roads is that you are about to enter it.

No other details are given of charges, how to pay, or which kind of vehicles are required to pay the charges unless you by some miracle already know about the scheme (stating that there have been extensive advertising campaigns is completely ridiculous when nobody in the modern age watches television or listens to the radio - and I would also question when these ads were airing as it is more than likely that it was years before I even owned a vehicle which the scheme would affect).

I mentioned it before, but if TFL really wanted motorists to be fully informed about the scheme, it would be arranged that pamphlets are sent out to new registered keepers of vehicles that are affected at the time of purchase.

As with all of TFL's communications, I have yet again been bombarded with information that the average motorist will find difficult to interpret. The most recent communication refers to a scheme order which the average person will have no idea exists, and it's only by chance that I actually read through it and discovered that TFL have issued a penalty charge that is incorrect for the vehicle type that I was driving at the time of the contravention.

I refer back to page 14 of TFL's LEZ Scheme order document, which I referenced as evidence in previous communications. With regards to the Penalty charge for non-payment of charge, point 14.(3)(a)(ii) clearly states...

(3) The amount of a penalty charge payable in accordance with paragraph (1) shall be (a) in respect of a penalty charge imposed in relation to the non-payment of a charge imposed by article 7(1) (ii) for relevant vehicles of Class M2 and Class N1 sub-classes (ii) and (iii), £500 but, if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the fourteenth day of the payment period, the amount shall be reduced by one half to £250;

I was issued a £1,000 penalty reduced to £500 if paid within 14 days. I included the V5C registration certificate as evidence that the vehicle is of class N1 which with reference to the above should be be penalised at a charge of £500 reduced to £250 if paid within 14 days.

TFL have come back to say that the vehicle is actually class N2, and then included evidence that in fact states that it is indeed class N1. TFL have made a basic mistake which they are refusing to acknowledge in the face of overwhelming evidence and it is on that basis that this penalty charge should be nullified.

As a final comment, I would like to reiterate how ludicrous this entire process has been.

At the time of the contravention, I had owned a van of that class for less than 3 months - having purchased it in London (the reason for me driving on the roads in question). I no longer even own the vehicle, and we are fast-approaching 1 year since the contravention took place. After all of this, it turns out that I have been issued with the incorrect penalty charge which TFL are refusing to recognise to the point where they are actually including evidence which backs up my own argument, and not their own.

This whole process is a complete waste of tax payer's money - chasing after new van owner who resides in Edinburgh that passed through London once and broke a rule that they were completely and understandably unaware of. I find it absurd that I have been forced to deal with this process for near enough one whole year, with every turn being made as complicated and difficult as possible - from the expectation that I should have known about the LEZ scheme down to TFL continuing to demand a penalty which is not due and including evidence which actually contradicts them.

TFL have been given an opportunity to comment at every stage of the process, whereby they leap at the opportunity to bombard me with information that is difficult to interpret. The scheme is obviously designed in a way to confuse ordinary motorists to the point where innocent people are forced to pay not insignificant sums of money or require a law degree to decipher.

I have found this whole process so overwhelming that I will be making a point of following this up with a letter to Chris Grayling MP - Secretary of State for Transport.

I hope you find it in you to see that it would be completely unjust to issue a penalty in these circumstances and urge you to please close the case once and for all.

Sincerely...”
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 10:28
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Have you already sent that London tribunals. I hope not Other than your ranting and questioning the adjudicator about why they should want evidence it would be fine, but the opening and closing will not endear you


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joobny
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 12:53
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We’ll see what happens. Thanks again for your help.
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joobny
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 22:13
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Good news - the adjudicator has cancelled the PCN. Well done to all those who helped out, I can't thank you enough. You've all saved me an awful lot of money!

Another victory for the forum. Thanks so much once again.
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cp8759
post Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 10:08
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Can you post the case number please?


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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 11:50
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 11:08) *
Can you post the case number please?




9180148069


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