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PCN driving in bus lane in Croydon
degsy333
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 21:27
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Hi -
I received a PCN for allegedly driving in a bus lane northbound on Wellesley Road in Croydon next to the Whitgift Centre. I was trying to turn sharp left into a car park which has a barrier almost immediately off the road so you cannot turn into it quickly. The road is a dual carriageway (30mph), with a bus lane - making 3 lanes in total. The bus lane stops right at the point of the entrance to the car park so drivers turning left into the car park either have the option of slowing in the 'middle' lane hoping no buses will be undertaking them or cars running into the back of them, or coming across into the bus lane to slow down to make the turn.

What's the best course of action? Having read the forums I think one job to do is to request full details of the Traffic Management Order for the bus lane. I'm also not convinced the signage is right (esp if you approach from the underpass) as the bus lane signs are really only placed for vehicles not coming out of the under pass. I also think the bus lane road markings are dangerous for vehicles trying to make this left turn.

The PCN arrived while I was on holiday so some of my initial 14 days have gone unfortunately.

Thanks for any help anyone can offer.
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post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 21:27
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cp8759
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 20:37
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As per usual, upload the PCN in full (all sides of all pages, redact just name / address) and post the video (you should be able to get it from the council website).


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degsy333
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 20:54
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 21:37) *
As per usual, upload the PCN in full (all sides of all pages, redact just name / address) and post the video (you should be able to get it from the council website).


Hi thanks for your response. Was just scanning in the PCN document when you posted your reply. All sides of all pages, with name/address and other details redacted. Please let me know if I've over-done the redaction. I'm not sure I can download the video. It's available with the car reg and PCN number. Looking at the "How to prepare and post photographs/images" sticky post, I wasn't sure I should be posting the PCN or the Reg number as this would allow tying it my specific PCN. Perhaps that doesn't matter?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/llelcglhr52jdzw/b...lean_s.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c7is0rkr93ma7d8/blp2_s.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/azkor6jydt11fon/blp3_s.jpg?dl=0

Thanks
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cp8759
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 22:05
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Your redaction is way OTT, you only need to redact your name and address, leave everything else in.

As for the video, if you PM me the PCN and reg number I can download it and re-post it.


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degsy333
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 22:35
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:05) *
Your redaction is way OTT, you only need to redact your name and address, leave everything else in.

As for the video, if you PM me the PCN and reg number I can download it and re-post it.


Less redacted (only name and address) version here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yns1vglq0130mxn/b...ean2_s.jpg?dl=0
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cp8759
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 22:47
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Video: https://youtu.be/klVn7NsSeZo

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:00


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degsy333
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 18:27
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:47) *

Thanks @cp8759. Any thoughts from anyone on best next steps?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 18:51
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Make an informal challenge that the contravention was minimal, that you gained no advantage in moving over slightly to early to turn left You did not intend to contravene and will take more care in the future. Very sorry.


You are setting the grounds to make a defence of De minimis and also giving the council the opportunity to exercise discretion, or not


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degsy333
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 18:58
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 19:51) *
Make an informal challenge that the contravention was minimal, that you gained no advantage in moving over slightly to early to turn left You did not intend to contravene and will take more care in the future. Very sorry.


You are setting the grounds to make a defence of De minimis and also giving the council the opportunity to exercise discretion, or not


Thanks PASTMYBEST - I like the sound of this approach as it is what happened. I would rather avoid technical arguments over proper placement of signage etc. And I certainly will take more care in future anyway! I have a couple more days to make the informal challenge, so will see whether there are any other thoughts and submit in the next day or so.

Thanks again.
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degsy333
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 21:17
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So my informal representation was rejected. I think this is really pretty harsh. My informal representation explained how I'd gained no advantage, how tricky making the very sharp turn is with traffic behind, and on the inside and outside, and pulling across the pavement where there are pedestrians. They claim that having re-examined the video evidence, "there is no reason for you to drive in the bus lane". So I'm pretty disappointed and slightly surprised - clearly no common sense is being applied here. Attached is the letter. Looks like my choice is to pay up, or wait until the Enforcement Notice arrives and appeal.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o68g6hfkmhkpt58/b..._clean.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r1fysxdhmw8gaml/b..._clean.jpg?dl=0

Not sure I have the time or energy for a drawn out appeal. Anyone got any thoughts/advice? Ultimately I think the lane markings are crap - it's just not possible to safely turn into that car park without slightly going into the bus lane. I'd probably be happy to pay the fine if I thought they would sort out the markings.

Thanks
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Incandescent
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 23:09
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Essentially, you were over a de minimis distance in the bus lane, and such is their greed for the cash, they have decided to enforce even though there is no traffic management purpose in doing so. If you had just crossed over where it says "bus lane" on the carriageway, it would be an almost certain win. in your case, it could go either way at adjudication, to win will need careful preparation with our help.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 23:23
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please post a GSV of the location, I want to check something


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degsy333
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 08:46
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 00:09) *
such is their greed for the cash, they have decided to enforce even though there is no traffic management purpose in doing so


Thanks @Incandescent - I think that just sums it up!
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 08:50
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From looking at the video, the road markings do not appear to conform to guidance. Had they done so De minimis might well be a fair argument post a GSV


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degsy333
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 08:53
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 23:23) *
please post a GSV of the location, I want to check something


Hi @PASTMYBEST

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3767832,-0....6384!8i8192

You can see from this the cones and a white barrier which is up in the GSV pictures, but at that time of the morning is usually down, so you cannot turn in quickly, even if there are no pedestrians. Also might be worth noting that I made the approach to this bit of road via the underpass.

This is the approach just exiting the underpass: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3752389,-0....6384!8i8192

Thanks
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 09:12
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See paragraph 17.8 here

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-05.pdf


The bus lane should end 10 metres before the junction. had it done so It would give you an indicator as to where you should pull over to make the turn. it is not practical nor safe in real driving conditions to make a 90degree turn at the end of the bus lane as it is marked. without this 10 metres you have to make a judgement whilst a little early had the markings been as per guidance it would be no more than 10 metres and can be differentiated from the mischief the restriction is in place to prevent


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degsy333
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 16:11
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 09:12) *
See paragraph 17.8 here

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-05.pdf


The bus lane should end 10 metres before the junction. had it done so It would give you an indicator as to where you should pull over to make the turn. it is not practical nor safe in real driving conditions to make a 90degree turn at the end of the bus lane as it is marked. without this 10 metres you have to make a judgement whilst a little early had the markings been as per guidance it would be no more than 10 metres and can be differentiated from the mischief the restriction is in place to prevent


Thanks @PASTMYBEST. That makes sense. I guess the question is whether I go down the road of appealing. What's the view of the likelihood of success on this? To be honest, I'm tempted to just pay and be done with it, but there's a principle at stake here. I guess if I go down the appeal route, the worst case is my liability doubles from £65 to £130 if the appeal fails?

The other thing I was wondering was whether the guidance you provided the link to is for a proper 'road' junction. The turning I was making was across a pavement into a car park. There was a dropped kerb, and they clearly recognise it as a turning because the bus lane line stops and starts again, so perhaps that's enough to acknowledge it's a bona fide 'junction'?

Thanks for your help on this.

This post has been edited by degsy333: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 16:14
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 17:00
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The line should end 10 metres before the junction not at it. If it was not a junction the line would not end. Imagine all the driveways throughout London that have bus lanes running along the carriageway. Some roads would be dotted white lines

Chances of winning, 50/50 or maybe slightly better. If the principle is important look at it this way.


You are walking about with 65 quid of the councils money in your pocket, they want it now. But they have to give you not 1 but 2 double or quits shots. At the first they may make mistakes( its quite common) to strengthen your hand, and at the second (adjudication) you get an independent legal view where the principle of De minimis is understood.

But regardless if you save the cost of a cup of coffee a week from now until you would have to pay if you lost (about 4 months) you will save the difference easily, so wont miss it and if you win you can then treat yourself.


Your choice entirely but if you fight on we will help you draft representations and an appeal


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degsy333
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 17:08
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@PASTMYBEST - excellent thoughts, and much appreciated.

My main concern would be how time-consuming the process would be. I'm a contractor, and paid by the day. If I have to turn up to make representations etc the lost work time will probably rule out an appeal. If it's all done through shuttling paperwork backwards and forwards that I can deal with in the evenings then that's a more realistic proposition.

Is there a sticky thread on these forums somewhere that describes the process I could look at?

Thanks for your continued help and advice.

This post has been edited by degsy333: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 17:08
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 17:16
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QUOTE (degsy333 @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 17:08) *
@PASTMYBEST - excellent thoughts, and much appreciated.

My main concern would be how time-consuming the process would be. I'm a contractor, and paid by the day. If I have to turn up to make representations etc the lost work time will probably rule out an appeal. If it's all done through shuttling paperwork backwards and forwards that I can deal with in the evenings then that's a more realistic proposition.

Is there a sticky thread on these forums somewhere that describes the process I could look at?

Thanks for your continued help and advice.


No a couple of hours on here and submitting the docs. All can be done on line and the hearing can be on the papers so no need for time off work. Or if you wanted a personal hearing, as is your right, they can be held on a Saturday


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