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Car on Private land, clamped and lifted....dispute on SORN
aspar
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:10
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Vehicle was untaxed and parked directly outside a property I own on an unadopted road [confirmed by checking council database]. For clarity it was on the road, not on my drive [I don't have one lol].

I had sent off SORN ages ago.

Vehicle was clamped and then lifted [I don't live there and was out of the country at the time.

I paid up and vehicle was returned to me.

I rang to dispute with the DVLA and they said it wasn't declared sorn and so their subcontractors could lift it [which I understand to be factually correct].

However my position is that I sent them the sorn via the paper and post system and they lost it, so I want a full refund. I believe people have proved that there is no legal requirement for us to contact DVLA if no sorn certificate received [which is what they told me I should have done....].

Would welcome your thoughts on all of this...

Thanks in advance

Obviously I shall be ensuring I definitely have a SORN in place going forward [it's free and easy so crazy not to do it]
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post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:10
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cp8759
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:17
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The problem is going to be how can you prove you sent off the SORN notification?

It is arguable that you'd be better off doing the sorn notification online, as you get a reference immediately on the website followed up by a confirmation email (that's a bit academic now).


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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aspar
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:25
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 18:17) *
The problem is going to be how can you prove you sent off the SORN notification?

It is arguable that you'd be better off doing the sorn notification online, as you get a reference immediately on the website followed up by a confirmation email (that's a bit academic now).


Thanks for the reply.

I guess I firstly need to show 'on the balance of probability' that I sent it [why wouldn't I have sent it in, it's free and easy and I gain no advantage by not doing so] and secondly prove that they have a track record of losing stuff [Freedom of Information Request might get me that....or does anyone know of cases similar to mine that I can get a transcript or rfeference of??]

I agree about the online....that's what I did once I knew the DVAL were saying 'it's not sorned' [and will deffo do that in future]...horse and stable door and all that!!!



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BaggieBoy
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:25
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QUOTE (aspar @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:10) *
However my position is that I sent them the sorn via the paper and post system and they lost it

More likely Royal Mail lost it. Unless you sent it via some tracked method which you neglected to tell us.
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aspar
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:30
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 18:25) *
QUOTE (aspar @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:10) *
However my position is that I sent them the sorn via the paper and post system and they lost it

More likely Royal Mail lost it. Unless you sent it via some tracked method which you neglected to tell us.


No, not tracked.

I'm offline now for tonight so will answer any other queries on monday.
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Logician
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:54
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I am afraid that without any evidence that you sent off a SORN declaration you face an uphill struggle. The DVLA are unlikely to simply accept your word for it, so you will have to go to court. The obvious question you will face is why you did not query the failure of the DVLA to acknowledge receipt of the notice you had sent off ages ago, to which you have no very convincing answer, it may not be necessary in law, but would have been a wise precaution and the most likely reason, that you posted the notification and then forgot about the matter, does not help your case.

On the other hand, since the continuous licensing system started the DVLA are supposed to query registered but unlicensed vehicles, and since continuous insurance started, registered but uninsured vehicles as well. You could argue that their failure to query the status of your car could reasonably have led you to believe that it was indeed SORNed, and also, as you say, you had no motive not to declare SORN.


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Colin_S
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 09:12
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QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:54) *
I am afraid that without any evidence that you sent off a SORN declaration you face an uphill struggle. The DVLA are unlikely to simply accept your word for it, so you will have to go to court. The obvious question you will face is why you did not query the failure of the DVLA to acknowledge receipt of the notice you had sent off ages ago, to which you have no very convincing answer, it may not be necessary in law, but would have been a wise precaution and the most likely reason, that you posted the notification and then forgot about the matter, does not help your case.

On the other hand, since the continuous licensing system started the DVLA are supposed to query registered but unlicensed vehicles, and since continuous insurance started, registered but uninsured vehicles as well. You could argue that their failure to query the status of your car could reasonably have led you to believe that it was indeed SORNed, and also, as you say, you had no motive not to declare SORN.


The OP has given no hint of timeline for the events which would be useful to see if such a defence would stack up.
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glasgow_bhoy
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 09:37
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I don't know about the OP, but I'd never think to expect a certificate of SORN. Your not paying for anything, so I'd not expect a receipt. I'd also not expect one seeing as they don't send you a tax disc anymore.
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Fredd
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 09:41
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You don't get one. The only thing you do get (other than email acknowledgement if you do it the easy way, online) is a an acknowledgement together with any refund you're due.


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baroudeur
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 15:38
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And the VED situation for any vehicle can be checked online HERE
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cp8759
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 19:33
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 15:38) *
And the VED situation for any vehicle can be checked online HERE

Correct link: https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Logician
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 20:59
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 09:37) *
I don't know about the OP, but I'd never think to expect a certificate of SORN. Your not paying for anything, so I'd not expect a receipt. I'd also not expect one seeing as they don't send you a tax disc anymore.


You get no certificate, you do get an acknowledgement, do it online and you get it instantly.



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baroudeur
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 14:11
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 19:33) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 15:38) *
And the VED situation for any vehicle can be checked online HERE

Correct link: https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/

Apologies. Something went wrong with the link.
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aspar
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:53
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Thanks for all the replies.

I'm mulling over issuing court papers [after the usual to and fro of letters].

I shall keep you all updated [but it may be several months before we get there!!!]
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peterguk
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:58
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QUOTE (aspar @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:53) *
I'm mulling over issuing court papers


Against who?


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Jlc
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 14:10
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:58) *
QUOTE (aspar @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:53) *
I'm mulling over issuing court papers


Against who?

And for what?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Dwain
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:18
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Can they lift on an unadopted road?

No one seems to have asked/answered this?

Does a vehilce even need to be sorned on an unadopted road? As its not maintained at the pubic expense what right do the DVLA have?
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aspar
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:19
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Against: DVLA [and their subcontractor???]

For: removing my car whilst it was on private land and SORN [to recover the full costs I paid to get it back]
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cp8759
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:34
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QUOTE (aspar @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:19) *
Against: DVLA [and their subcontractor???]

For: removing my car whilst it was on private land and SORN [to recover the full costs I paid to get it back]

You would need to prove, on the balance of probabilities, that a SORN had been made and was in force. How are you going to do that?

Also consider there's some additional rules you must follow to sue the Crown, you might want to look them up first.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:35


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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samthecat
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:46
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QUOTE (Dwain @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:18) *
Can they lift on an unadopted road?

No one seems to have asked/answered this?

Does a vehilce even need to be sorned on an unadopted road? As its not maintained at the pubic expense what right do the DVLA have?


The clue is in the name.... Statutory Off Road Notification.


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If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
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