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Parking order amendments
Sparxy
post Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 15:28
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Hi all.

A local council have posted notice of a proposal to amend a local parking order. Unfortunately they have not actually posted the proposal online as of yet (they have post dated the notices).

What is the minimum timeframe required for proposals/objections to be submitted, is it 21 days?

It is a proposal for making amendments to make restrictions "more appropriate, consistent and clearer", I wonder if they're going to turn it into a parking zone.

Cheers knowledgeable ones!

This post has been edited by Sparxy: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 01:54
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post Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 15:28
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DancingDad
post Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 15:46
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https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/contents/made

LATOR 1996 is the relevant regs.
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Sparxy
post Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 23:08
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 28 Mar 2023 - 16:46) *


Wonderful, thanks! smile.gif
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Sparxy
post Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 01:46
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So, have been plodding through the proposal.

I've noticed that they have not made the principle order, with a subsequent amendment (to which this one amends), available online (with the proposal). I am going to go and see if it is available at the council office, presumably it will be, but, i'm not sure that they have complied with LATOR 1996 7 (4)?

QUOTE
(4) Deposited documents shall be made so available at the times and at the places specified in the notice of proposals throughout the period beginning with the date on which the notice of proposals is first published and ending with the last day of the period of 6 weeks which begins with the date on which the order is made or, as the case may be, the authority decides not to make the order.


The notice of proposal clearly states that documents are available at the council offices, and online at the councils website (with a url), with a published date of yesterday (date on the notice).

LATOR 1996 Sch. 2 (2)(e) specifies "if the order varies, revokes, applies or suspends another order, a copy of that other order;".

I also noticed that Sch. 2 (2)( c ) says "except where the order is one to which paragraph 3 applies, a map which clearly shows the location and effect of the order as proposed to be made or as made (as the case may be)..."

Does this mean that the map should show both the area of effect, including road markings / signage? I noticed that a previous proposal had similar maps to this one, but also included locations and examples of the signage that would be installed/removed.

The full proposal is here: https://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/downloads/...ice-of-proposal

This post has been edited by Sparxy: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 02:24
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DancingDad
post Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 10:32
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An email to the Highways Department may save you a trip?

There is no specific format that I am aware of for maps, they are something that have crept in over the years.
Basically they only need to show the extent of any restriction but signs or other useful information is down to the draughtsman.

Personally I dislike maps acting as the only schedule.
While they give the information in easy to understand form, they are also very easy to modify and those mods may not be noted correctly.
Nor is it always possible to find the "original" as signed off within the order.
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Sparxy
post Thu, 13 Apr 2023 - 20:33
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Thanks DancingDad.

I eventually got the order to which this proposal amends, only 6 days following the publication of the notice, from the traffic company running the proposal. Thankfully the traffic company appears to be fairly chatty, the council less so. For the bit i'm interested in, there is absolutely no change to the restriction times, they are just turning it into a residents permit zone, complete with new entry signage and repeaters, removal of the current signage, and removal of the yellow lines, etc.

The principle? order, which this proposal amends, doesn't have an explicit "loading/unloading" exemption for the "permit parking" zones (3.12, Schedule 6, exemptions at 5.8) (but does for other no/restricted waiting streets in the same document, such as in 5.9). The current order for these streets explicitly states an exemption for loading/unloading. So from what I understand so far, there will be no loading/unloading permitted during the restricted times, in the "permit parking" roads.

I asked this question of the traffic company, and after the council got back to them, was told that loading/unloading would be permitted, but then the principle order doesn't actually state that.

Is there an inherent loading/unloading exemption for residential parking zones, or should it be stated in the order?

Also after reading through LATOR 1996 over the past week or so, i'm almost 100% certain the council should have published the original order with the proposal. It says that they should make deposited documents available at the places stated in the notice, and those places were stated as the council offices, and on the council website, which they did not do when the notice was published (and technically still haven't online).

Here is the original order (although i'm not 100% if Amendment number 1 ever got implemented, or if it's actually consolidated in this document or not): https://filebin.net/yuziemr1w6dkuzoq

This post has been edited by Sparxy: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 - 21:33
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cp8759
post Thu, 13 Apr 2023 - 21:55
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I don't think they have to publish the order, they only need to make it available for inspection. Have you attempted to go and inspect it?


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Sparxy
post Thu, 13 Apr 2023 - 22:26
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 13 Apr 2023 - 22:55) *
I don't think they have to publish the order, they only need to make it available for inspection. Have you attempted to go and inspect it?


I did not as i'm not in Herefordshire at present, unfortunately. I'm not sure if i'll be back again in time to go and try to inspect it before the objection deadline.

When I read 7 (4) of LATOR 1996 as "Deposited documents shall be made so available at the times and at the places specified in the notice of proposals...", I took that to mean that it included both the physical council office, and at their website (as both are specified in the notice).

This post has been edited by Sparxy: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 - 22:43
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cp8759
post Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 08:41
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If you make a request for a copy under the Environmental Information Regulations 2004, they have to provide it within 20 working days.

Maybe you could object on the basis that they're in breach of LATOR, but then you'd have to attend the hearing in the High Court, which would involve a trip to London anyway.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 08:42


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Sparxy
post Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 13:37
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 09:41) *
If you make a request for a copy under the Environmental Information Regulations 2004, they have to provide it within 20 working days.

Maybe you could object on the basis that they're in breach of LATOR, but then you'd have to attend the hearing in the High Court, which would involve a trip to London anyway.


I have already got the (hopefully) up to date order that is being amended, the link is in the previous post. It just wasn't available at the time of publication of the notice. I'm hoping that the large area that the proposal covers means there will be enough objections that parts will be reconsidered or dropped.

The loading/unloading exemption is not listed in the proposal, nor is it listed in the order to be amended. Yet, I asked the traffic company and they have advised that it will be in the final sealed order. Can changes like this be made without being written in the specific proposal?

Some would say that I don't trust them...

This post has been edited by Sparxy: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 13:37
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cp8759
post Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 13:41
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What do you mean by the "traffic company"?


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Sparxy
post Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 13:50
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 14:41) *
What do you mean by the "traffic company"?


It's the company that appear to be collating the objections to the proposal, and dealing with questions, as listed on the notice. I asked them, who subsequently asked the council, and have come back with that response.
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cp8759
post Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 14:37
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Have you looked at the costs / risks of making an objection? It sounds like you might want to object anyway if there's no large downside.

I wouldn't trust anything the council says.


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Sparxy
post Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 16:11
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 15:37) *
Have you looked at the costs / risks of making an objection? It sounds like you might want to object anyway if there's no large downside.

I wouldn't trust anything the council says.


There are costs of making objections (at least at the proposal stage)? That isn't documented anywhere that i've read so far

Or are you referring to costs/risks in the sense of not having the proposal put in place, or! objecting to the order once it is put in place?

This post has been edited by Sparxy: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 16:14
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cp8759
post Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 16:52
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I'm referring to a statutory objection to the High Court.


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Sparxy
post Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 16:55
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 14 Apr 2023 - 17:52) *
I'm referring to a statutory objection to the High Court.


I did wonder, we're not at that stage yet (and hopefully don't need to), thanks for clarifying! smile.gif
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