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3 Tickets in 3 weeks expecting atleast 1 more, Help!
SC86
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 10:14
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Hi All,

Long and short of it, a new average speed camera has been placed in a village that I drive through multiple times a week in my works vehicle. I thought it was a traffic monitoring camera as its placed on the top of a lamppost and not the normal square yellow cameras, but a small one. I was advised on Monday the 29th of October that the company had received a ticket dated the 22nd of Sept, and was I the driver.

Despite our works vans being leased, we all have our own individual van so there was no denying it, i was the driver at the time of the offence. Doing 36mph in a 30mph zone.

This was raised on Monday the 29th of October, since then I have now been hit with a further 2 x tickets dated the 13th of October (again ave 36mph) and the 27th of Oct (ave 40mph).

I currently have 3 points on my licence from a previous speeding fine dating back to 2016.

My concern is I believe that there will be 1 further ticket which will be issued from Sunday the 28th of October... which I am still waiting for.

I have a small family, that rely on my salary, to support the mortgage and everything. If I lose my license because of this then I will also more than likely lose my job and house!!

In total I could receive 4 x tickets at 3 points a pop and with the 3 I already have should I be prepared to lose my license and how long for?

Im petrified that this will be the end of my job and life as i know it... it might sound extreme but its really that black and white !

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post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 10:14
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Earl Purple
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 10:20
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Whilst you might be offered a course on one of them, reducing it down to 3, that would still be 9 points so adding to the 3 you already have would take you up to a totting ban.

Therefore you'll have to go to court anyway. I think it can be possible on occasion to get them counted as one big single offence because it wasn't until the first one you received that you had a chance to "correct" your driving behaviour. You won't get a "course" for that and will probably need court so there will be high expenses but you may avoid the driving ban.

Others have more experience on these things.
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SC86
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 10:43
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QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 10:20) *
Whilst you might be offered a course on one of them, reducing it down to 3, that would still be 9 points so adding to the 3 you already have would take you up to a totting ban.

Therefore you'll have to go to court anyway. I think it can be possible on occasion to get them counted as one big single offence because it wasn't until the first one you received that you had a chance to "correct" your driving behaviour. You won't get a "course" for that and will probably need court so there will be high expenses but you may avoid the driving ban.

Others have more experience on these things.



Are you automatically banned when you get to 12? or is 12 the limit?
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 10:51
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Auto ban once you reach 12 or more within 3 years as it is offence date.

Youcould respond to all within the 28 days ideally wihtin the same envelope, ccovering letter asking if they are able to treat one or more of them as a single offence.
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Jlc
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 10:54
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Upon reaching 12 points you are banned for 6 months. You will have the opportunity to submit an exceptional hardship plea to reduce that ban, potentially to none. Losing your job in itself may not be considered exceptional - the impact on others carries more weight.

But first things first. They are not 'one single offence' and could all be pursued individually for which you may not have a defence. As mentioned, the Force may be prepared to use discretion to disregard some of the offences on the basis you were not notified in time to rectify your behaviour - but you are expected to drive within the limit at all times.

What sort of excesses are we talking about?

There is a recent case on here (I can dig up) where the Force did disregard multiple offences into one - but it's discretionary so prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SC86
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 10:56
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 10:51) *
Auto ban once you reach 12 or more within 3 years as it is offence date.

Youcould respond to all within the 28 days ideally wihtin the same envelope, ccovering letter asking if they are able to treat one or more of them as a single offence.


Has the above worked in the passed? I thought it was a traffic monitoring camera and not a speed camera... Not that this will pass in court.

The issue I have is that I havent had time to react due to only finding out about the first on the 29th of October... in 10 days ive found out about a further 3!!

If I get banned what is the normal time frame of the ban? 12months?

Regards,
Sean
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Jlc
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 10:56
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EDIT: Here is the case I refer to.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SC86
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 11:32
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 10:54) *
Upon reaching 12 points you are banned for 6 months. You will have the opportunity to submit an exceptional hardship plea to reduce that ban, potentially to none. Losing your job in itself may not be considered exceptional - the impact on others carries more weight.

But first things first. They are not 'one single offence' and could all be pursued individually for which you may not have a defence. As mentioned, the Force may be prepared to use discretion to disregard some of the offences on the basis you were not notified in time to rectify your behaviour - but you are expected to drive within the limit at all times.

What sort of excesses are we talking about?

There is a recent case on here (I can dig up) where the Force did disregard multiple offences into one - but it's discretionary so prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.



Offence 1 is 36mph in a 30
Offence 2 is 36mph in a 30
Offence 3 is 40mph in a 30

All by the same camera... and all between 07:00 and 07:30
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 11:45
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as pointed out, all you can do is return all the S172/NIP that you cna, in one envelope, with a covering letter asking for their discretion. they dont HAVe to pursue every incident.
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Jlc
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 11:48
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QUOTE (SC86 @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 11:32) *
Offence 1 is 36mph in a 30
Offence 2 is 36mph in a 30
Offence 3 is 40mph in a 30

All by the same camera... and all between 07:00 and 07:30

Sorry, I missed that in the OP.

Well, get writing that begging letter - it can work. Return them together correctly filled in with a covering note, otherwise it's a course and the remainder will be 3 points £100 each. (You can't accept a conditional offer if it makes you tot, which is where the court and EH plea come into play)

If it's a new camera setup then they may be more open to dropping some as the excesses are not large, or they may state that the signage is sufficient and you are expected to have maintained 30mph anyway and no time to react was necessary (in law).

Might be worth waiting a little while to see if any more arrive.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 11:52


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SC86
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 15:40
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Do the "Vector" Cameras that are forward facing take pics of the driver?
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southpaw82
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 15:41
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QUOTE (SC86 @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 15:40) *
Do the "Vector" Cameras that are forward facing take pics of the driver?

Why do you ask?


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 16:25
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 15:41) *
QUOTE (SC86 @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 15:40) *
Do the "Vector" Cameras that are forward facing take pics of the driver?

Why do you ask?

Think carefully before you answer that question as you don't want to feature on this thread.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 16:25


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SC86
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 17:28
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 11:48) *
QUOTE (SC86 @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 11:32) *
Offence 1 is 36mph in a 30
Offence 2 is 36mph in a 30
Offence 3 is 40mph in a 30

All by the same camera... and all between 07:00 and 07:30

Sorry, I missed that in the OP.

Well, get writing that begging letter - it can work. Return them together correctly filled in with a covering note, otherwise it's a course and the remainder will be 3 points £100 each. (You can't accept a conditional offer if it makes you tot, which is where the court and EH plea come into play)

If it's a new camera setup then they may be more open to dropping some as the excesses are not large, or they may state that the signage is sufficient and you are expected to have maintained 30mph anyway and no time to react was necessary (in law).

Might be worth waiting a little while to see if any more arrive.



Thanks for the advice, ive been trawling the internet for similar cases to see what options I have. I think the best advice is definitely on here... im going to wait another week to see if I get another one and then write a letter as per other cases on here see if they can consider dropping any of them, if not I will need to try and make a plea for EH in court. I am still waiting for Offence 2 and 3 to be sent in my name.

Offence 1 - (22nd of Sept) - Made aware on Monday 29th of Oct
Ave speed of 36mph in 30mph zone

Offence 2 (13th of Oct) - Made aware on Weds 31st of Oct
Ave speed of 36mph in 30mph zon

Offence 3 (27th of Oct) - Made aware on the 8th of Nov
Ave speed of 40mph in 30mph zone.
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KH_
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 18:40
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I've seen other suggestions, when asking to have incidents treated as one instead of three (or four in your case if another arrives), where the person was only notified of a speeding offence after committing others on the same road.

This is usually when the offences are a few days apart and yours are quite a distance in time apart, however, if you had committed all the speeding offences before being made aware of the first then you could use that argument.
Along the lines of "Had I been notified of the correct speed limit in a timely manner I would not have committed the further offences"

This only applies if you truly weren't aware of the correct limit, and again, much more difficult to pull off based on the time between tickets.
Be careful though, if you were aware of the correct limit and use that argument there is the possibility of a much more serious offence being committed.
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notmeatloaf
post Yesterday, 22:57
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QUOTE (KH_ @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 18:40) *
Along the lines of "Had I been notified of the correct speed limit in a timely manner I would not have committed the further offences"

This only applies if you truly weren't aware of the correct limit, and again, much more difficult to pull off based on the time between tickets.
Be careful though, if you were aware of the correct limit and use that argument there is the possibility of a much more serious offence being committed.

No.

Telling a camera office you would have obeyed the speed limit if you knew there was a camera is place will fairly obviously go down like a lead balloon. This is a new camera, not a new limit as in other cases where that line might work.

All the OP needs to do is apologise, say they normally observe speed limits, and ask if they would consider combining the offences in light of the offences being so close together.

Keep it simple, the OP is relying on their goodwill.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Yesterday, 22:58
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