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zen419
Posted on: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 - 22:05


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Joined: 11 Aug 2014
Member No.: 72,425


Good news! Sheffield City Council has acknowledged its mistake and will refund the fine my wife paid. Apparently ~1,000 other drivers will also have penalty notices withdrawn and/or fines refunded. There are a couple of articles in the local newspapers about it...
http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/trapped-driv...yback-1-6819402
http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/news/l...ivers-1-6820412

However, I only found out about this when I returned to Sheffield on Friday to drop my daughter at uni, and then went into the council offices to complain in person (they hadn't replied to my letter appealing the fine).
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1002132 · Replies: 9 · Views: 2,675

zen419
Posted on: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 - 13:47


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 11 Aug 2014
Member No.: 72,425


QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 1 Aug 2014 - 11:34) *
The back of the PCN will probably say if challenged within the discount period they will re-apply the discount. We haven't seen it so cannot know if it does.

Their website says they will reapply the discount in this situation, but the PCN doesn't mention it.
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #991050 · Replies: 16 · Views: 3,495

zen419
Posted on: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 - 18:15


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Posts: 6
Joined: 11 Aug 2014
Member No.: 72,425


QUOTE (Guilty as charged @ Mon, 11 Aug 2014 - 18:30) *
It's this bus lane that I got 'done' for in this thread:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=92322
Some photos on that thread that show the current signs. The diversion signs have now gone.
Have a very close look at the second photo on your ticket, could there have been a diversion in place when you went through the lane?

Thank you for this valuable post. I got the magnifying glass out and there is indeed a yellow sign on the pavement, in exactly the same position as the one in your first photo! And I approached the junction from the same direction as you, so would have suffered the same confusion! I was snapped on July 12th - when did you get done? And did you make any progress establishing who erected the diversion signs?
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #990751 · Replies: 9 · Views: 2,675

zen419
Posted on: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 - 17:55


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Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 11 Aug 2014
Member No.: 72,425


Hi Mick, Thanks for the reply. My wife actually made the payment using her own credit card and without consulting me - I'm wasn't ready to admit liability. But I won't be surprised if the law treats husband and wife as a single entity, so I'm not sure if her involvement is relevant.

Can I ask how sure you are that this is 'case closed'? On re-reading the PCN, it says "Representations made outside of the 28 period may be disregarded" but there is no caveat to say that representations may be also disregarded if a payment is made before then. If they reject the representation without giving it serious consideration, that might be a procedural irregularity, based on the process they describe in the PCN.

Incidentally, I noticed a piece of nonsense on the back of the form. OTOH, it instructs the recipient to "sign the form and return it" but it it also advises the recipient to "retain this page"! rolleyes.gif

One more thing, for the benefit of any who might read my OP and use it as a template for their own appeal... I'll have to drop #2, as further research shows the incident occurred at the London Road/Asline Road junction, which has been heavily remodelled since Google's cameras were there. Thus, there is now no ambiguity about the location.
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #990744 · Replies: 9 · Views: 2,675

zen419
Posted on: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 - 12:53


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Posts: 6
Joined: 11 Aug 2014
Member No.: 72,425


^^ I can't read that link - not sure if others will have more luck. I suggest you read the advice to new posters first - I made my first post today, and the instructions they give work well if you follow them. Btw, you mentioned two PCNs - I expect you'll need to post them both.
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #990592 · Replies: 19 · Views: 2,060

zen419
Posted on: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 - 11:50


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Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 11 Aug 2014
Member No.: 72,425


Hi guys, I received a PCN last month and paid the £30 fine within 14 days. However, after discovering this forum, I thought I would try an appeal and would welcome comments on my chances. I've posted the PCN at the end of this post, and having read advice in this forum and elsewhere, I can't see anything wrong with it. Given the distance, I can't revisit the scene to check signage, etc, but the PCN's photographic evidence gives me hope that the road markings may prove to be inadequate.

Briefly, the situation is this. I live near London and was in Sheffield collecting my daughter from uni, and drove through a bus gate around lunchtime. I genuinely don't remember doing that and cannot identify the location with 100% certainty, but if it is at the junction of London Road and Abbeydale Road, then a 24/7 bus gate has replaced a peak-only bus lane (according to googlemaps). I remember the bus lane from a previous visit to Sheffield, but I haven't used the conflict between past memories and current signage as grounds for appeal, as I doubt I'd get very far. Instead, I've written the following...
QUOTE
Dear Sir or Madam
I write to appeal against Bus Lane Penalty Charge Notice XXXXXX issued on 18th July 2014, and to request the return of the payment of £30 which was made within 14 days of the date of issue. My grounds for appeal are as follows:
1. The PCN is a "Bus Lane Penalty Charge Notice" and the alleged offense is "Being in a bus lane", but the matter concerns a Bus Gate, not a Bus Lane. I challenge the PCN on the basis that it does not correctly describe the offense alleged to have occurred. In the event that this element of my appeal is rejected, please confirm that a "Bus Lane Adjudicator" (mentioned in the PCN) can hear an appeal against a penalty incurred in a Bus Gate.
2. The PCN does not provide enough information for me to identify where the alleged offence took place, which in turn prevents me from confirming to my own satisfaction that the signage, lineage, etc were in order and further prevents me from challenging the PCN on the grounds of any non-conformity with regulation (I live near London and cannot revisit the scene personally, but could send an acquaintance to view the site if I knew where it was). The PCN mentions "London Road - Bus Gate" but this is a long road, according to online maps. Furthermore, using online resources, I have identified a Bus Gate on London Road at the junction with Asline Road, but this does not match the street scene pictured on the PCN (see http://goo.gl/maps/BQoVc). Thus, the description "London Road - Bus Gate" appears to be ambiguous at best, and in practice it is insufficient for me to locate the site precisely. I challenge the PCN on the grounds that it does not describe where the offense is alleged to have occurred. In the event that this element of my appeal is rejected, I request the Council to precisely describe the location (so that I can consider a further appeal) and demonstrate how the phrase "London Road – Bus Gate" can unambiguously identify it.
3. The picture in the PCN clearly shows that there only two options for a vehicle encountering the Bus Gate - proceed straight ahead or turn right into a side road. However, the right turn option still requires the vehicle to enter the area marked on the road surface, albeit briefly. Given that there is no option which avoids the Bus Gate zone entirely, I challenge the PCN on the grounds that there is no safe/legal option for a driver encountering the Bus Gate shown in the photo. In the event that this element of my appeal is rejected, please advise how a driver should proceed in this situation, while completely avoiding the Bus Gate zone.
4. The photo shows that there are no markings on the road surface which direct prohibited traffic away from the Bus Gate, and I believe that such markings are required by Traffic Regulations. At another bus gate on London Road (junction with Asline Road), googlemaps shows the type of marking I would expect to see (see http://goo.gl/maps/BQoVc). In the event that this element of my appeal is rejected, I request the Council to demonstrate how the requirements of the Traffic Regulations have been met in this regard.
In summary, I request that you cancel the PCN forthwith, and refund the £30 I have already paid.
In the event that my appeal is rejected, I make the following Freedom of Information (FOI) request...
• When was the " London Road - Bus Gate" installed?
• Since that date, how many appeals concerning this bus gate have been made on the grounds of inadequate or invalid signage (including advance signage), road markings, traffic orders and/or camera specifications?
• Of these, how many appeals have been successful, how many have been rejected, and how many are being processed?
• What, if any, changes have been made to the signage, road markings and/or traffic orders as a result of such appeals?
Please also advise if there are any other photos or videos relating to the alleged offence, other than the photos supplied with the PCN.
[Yours etc]

If I have to predict the outcome, I'd say that #1 will be dismissed, #2 will depend on how much information they are obliged to provide (I don't know the answer), #3 will also be dismissed if (as I suspect) the bus gate starts beyond the road markings, but #4 seems very promising. I'll be back in Sheffield in mid-September (returning the offspring to uni), so will revisit the site if the appeals process is still ongoing at the time. As I said above, I'd be grateful for any opinions or comments on my apeal.

  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #990566 · Replies: 9 · Views: 2,675


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