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PCN in Kensington & Chelsea for single yellow at 8:37am whilst loading car outside my house - 10 min grace period?
gtahhh
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 21:37
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Hello

I parked overnight outside my house in the Kensington & Chelsea on a single yellow. I started packing the car just before 8:30am and then went in to get 2 large suitcases (down 4 flights of stairs) to put in the car before leaving. I thought I was only a few minutes doing this but I got a ticket at 8:37am.

I live here and have done for nearly a year and my car and driving licence are registered at this address. However, I haven't got a residents' parking permit yet as I hardly ever park my car here. I will get one at the end of next month.

I see that some councils apply the 10 minute grace periods to single yellow lines and start ticketing at 8:41am. The parking attendant told me he works on 5 minutes and will start ticketing at 8:36. You'll see from the PCN that he did wait for 5 mins, which he said was to give me chance to move the car but I suspect it was really so he didn't miss the chance to issue the ticket.

Do you think there is any hope of leniency given the time of the PCN and/or that I am a resident loading my car, despite not with a permit? Also, how accurate are the clocks used in the ticketing devices?

Thanks
-g


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post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 21:37
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 21:52
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We need to see the council pics, loading is an exemption to parking on a yellow line but but we do not know if a grace period would apply until we see those photos


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Incandescent
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:30
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Your PCN has absolutely nothing whatever to do with not having a permit, it is simply for being parked on a single yellow line within its restricted time period. In faxct even if you had a permit, you'd still have got a ticket for the single yellow line.

However, as PMB says, loading/unloading is an exemption, so challenge the PCN on this basis, emphasising the size and weight of the cases, (photos), and the location they had to be obtained from. Do be aware that most informal challenges are just batted-off, as then most people cough-up so as not to lose the discount. You may well have to stand your ground, wait for the Notice to Owner, send in reps again, then, if rejected, appeal to the adjudicators. At the NtO stage the discount is lost, so you'd need to check with us what your chances of success are. Two large suitcases sounds like you needed to be close to your residence thus he exemption applies.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:31
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gtahhh
post Sun, 26 May 2019 - 19:09
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Thank you both for your advice.

I was indeed very close to my house - directly opposite on the other side of the road. This was as close as I could get. The warden saw me struggling out of the house at what must have been ~8:38am with one of the huge 77 litre suitcases, which was full of books, so probably weighed around 30kgs.

I have attached the council photos:






This post has been edited by gtahhh: Sun, 26 May 2019 - 19:26
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stamfordman
post Sun, 26 May 2019 - 20:24
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you should win this if you see it through - draft a challenge and post here first - include that the CEO saw you carrying a heavy suitcase.

be explicit that you are claiming the loading exemption. Detail the amount of luggage loaded and the distance/stairs involved.

Shame you didn't start before 8.30 though.

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gtahhh
post Sun, 26 May 2019 - 21:53
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I did start just before 8:30, bringing a small case and a laptop bag down which I put in the boot then put the luggage cover over. I then went back for the 2 other larger, heavy bags, bringing them down individually the 4 flights of stairs. The top two flights being very narrow, steep and curved, requiring me to hold the bags forwards, poking straight out, with one end propped on my hips, then down one stair at a time trying to avoid the bag swinging side to side as I stepped down and destroying the fine balustrades. All very elaborate and tiring. I had both bags by the front door ready to load the car but this must have taken me ~8 mins. I was rushing as I was aware I was 'exposed' re the parking but it must've taken me a lot longer than I thought.

Here is a draft challenge, which I intend to do online. The form has a 3000 char limit and I am not sure if there is an option to attach files.

QUOTE
Dear Sir/madam

At the time of the alleged contravention, I was loading my car, which is an exemption. I live at NN ????? St. and my car was parked directly in front of my house on the opposite of the road.

I started loading the car shortly before 8:30am, putting two bags in my car before securing the car and going into my house to get two more bags. These were both very large bags (77 litre 'duffle' style suitcases) and were very heavy (they contained books). I had to bring each case down 4 flights of stairs from the top floor of the house. The top two flights of stairs are narrow, steep and curved and getting the cases down on my own took me longer than I expected. When I had both cases ready to load in the hallway by the front door, I came out of my house to see that the civil enforcement office had just put a ticket on my car. The CEO saw that I was struggling with a large, heavy case when I came out of the house.

I am a resident and my car is registered at my address, as is my driving licence. I can supply copies of these and a picture of the cases I was loading if necessary.

Given that there is a specific exemption for loading, and I was loading my car, as witnessed by the CEO, I request that this PCN is cancelled.

Yours faithfully

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stamfordman
post Mon, 27 May 2019 - 09:05
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Looks good to me.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 27 May 2019 - 09:28
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QUOTE (gtahhh @ Sun, 26 May 2019 - 22:53) *
I did start just before 8:30, bringing a small case and a laptop bag down which I put in the boot then put the luggage cover over. I then went back for the 2 other larger, heavy bags, bringing them down individually the 4 flights of stairs. The top two flights being very narrow, steep and curved, requiring me to hold the bags forwards, poking straight out, with one end propped on my hips, then down one stair at a time trying to avoid the bag swinging side to side as I stepped down and destroying the fine balustrades. All very elaborate and tiring. I had both bags by the front door ready to load the car but this must have taken me ~8 mins. I was rushing as I was aware I was 'exposed' re the parking but it must've taken me a lot longer than I thought.

Here is a draft challenge, which I intend to do online. The form has a 3000 char limit and I am not sure if there is an option to attach files.

QUOTE
Dear Sir/madam

At the time of the alleged contravention, I was loading my car, which is an exemption. I live at NN ????? St. and my car was parked directly in front of my house on the opposite of the road.

I started loading the car shortly before 8:30am, putting two bags in my car before securing the car and going into my house to get two more bags. These were both very large bags (77 litre 'duffle' style suitcases) and were very heavy (they contained books). I had to bring each case down 4 flights of stairs from the top floor of the house. The top two flights of stairs are narrow, steep and curved and getting the cases down on my own took me longer than I expected. When I had both cases ready to load in the hallway by the front door, I came out of my house to see that the civil enforcement office had just put a ticket on my car. The CEO saw that I was struggling with a large, heavy case when I came out of the house.

I am a resident and my car is registered at my address, as is my driving licence. I can supply copies of these and a picture of the cases I was loading if necessary.

Given that there is a specific exemption for loading, and I was loading my car, as witnessed by the CEO, I request that this PCN is cancelled.

Yours faithfully



Don't say you will supply if necessary, provide them, they will require evidence.

Do you live in a flat on the top floor, the whole house. If a flat make the point, if the whole house do not. mention it


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gtahhh
post Mon, 27 May 2019 - 20:08
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Thank you both for checking over my text.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 27 May 2019 - 10:28) *
Do you live in a flat on the top floor, the whole house. If a flat make the point, if the whole house do not. mention it


Not quite either of those. I live in a house with my landlord but I have a room at the top of the house. The stairs are definitely relevant in this case so I think my text is OK. I could add "I live in a room at the top of the house so I had to bring each case...", if you think that makes the point more convincingly?

I will supply copies of my licence and V5 and change the text accordingly.

Do you think photos of the cases will add anything?
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Incandescent
post Mon, 27 May 2019 - 21:21
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Driving licence and V5 is not really of importance here, what IS important is the weight and bulk of the goods being loaded. I suggest you take photos of the two cases and provide the nature and approximate weight of the cases with their contents. Submit photos, which if they ignore, means they are just money-grubbing so you'd need to take them to London Tribunals.
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gtahhh
post Fri, 31 May 2019 - 22:10
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Thank you all. My challenge is in with details of the size and weight of the larger cases along with a photo of one of the cases next to my car to give a sense of scale. It's massive and weighed over 30kgs! I think that given that there is a specific exemption for loading, and I was loading my car outside my residence at the time of the alleged contravention, as witnessed by the CEO, this does feel like a solid challenge. We'll see...

I'll update you in due course when I hear back from our friends at the Royal Borough's parking dept.
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gtahhh
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 22:52
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As expected my informal representation was knocked back without apparently taking anything I said into account. The CEO saw me struggle out of my house with an enormously heavy case. Their letter is below.

A slight complication is that I will be in Australia from 28th June until the end of August and so will not be able to receive communication by post.

What should I do next?

-g


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Incandescent
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 23:43
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Their letter is tosh, basically. Loading applies to non-commercial activity as well as commercial, so stating you should submit proff like an invoice or a receipt is nonsense. However some sort of idea of the size of the goods would be necessary at adjudication where I assume you will take them eventually if they prove intransigent.

So if you want to stand your ground, wait for the Notice to Owner, and submit reps again, but with some evidence of the size and weight of the goods. I you already did this, then they have "failed to consider", so have committed a procedural impropriety.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 07:54
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OP, you do not physically have to have a NTO in your hands in order to make reps.

It can be on your doormat in W1 and you could be sipping cocktails in Barra Barra, just as long as you make reps online or by email after the NTO has been issued and before the end of the 28-day period.

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gtahhh
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 17:55
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 08:54) *
just as long as you make reps online or by email after the NTO has been issued and before the end of the 28-day period.


How do I work out the timing of this?

Along with my licence and V5 to show I was a local (not necessary, I know) I submitted the following photograph of one of the large cases with my reps; the full size photo allows you to see it's ~80cm long:


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cp8759
post Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 11:10
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What was in the bag? How heavy was it when full?

You can see what I'm getting to: if that bag were empty most people would be able to easily carry it from the nearest parking place with ease, so parking on a yellow line would not be "necessary".

And why just the photo of 1 bag? Where's the two large suitcases?

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 11:11


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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gtahhh
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 08:46
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 12:10) *
What was in the bag? How heavy was it when full?

You can see what I'm getting to: if that bag were empty most people would be able to easily carry it from the nearest parking place with ease, so parking on a yellow line would not be "necessary".

And why just the photo of 1 bag? Where's the two large suitcases?



In my representations I explained that the two heavy cases contained books and weighed about 30kgs each. I was only able to photograph one case as the others with the books have been taken to another house and I'm not going to go there again for a while. The case in the photo is a third one I have that is exactly the same. As the cases travelled elsewhere just after I got the ticket, I could have only got a photo of all the cases if I had the presence of mind to take a photo then and there.
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cp8759
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 14:57
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QUOTE (gtahhh @ Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 09:46) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 12:10) *
What was in the bag? How heavy was it when full?

You can see what I'm getting to: if that bag were empty most people would be able to easily carry it from the nearest parking place with ease, so parking on a yellow line would not be "necessary".

And why just the photo of 1 bag? Where's the two large suitcases?



In my representations I explained that the two heavy cases contained books and weighed about 30kgs each. I was only able to photograph one case as the others with the books have been taken to another house and I'm not going to go there again for a while. The case in the photo is a third one I have that is exactly the same. As the cases travelled elsewhere just after I got the ticket, I could have only got a photo of all the cases if I had the presence of mind to take a photo then and there.

Then all this needs to be explained in the formal representations.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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gtahhh
post Tue, 6 Aug 2019 - 03:18
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Hello everyone!

I am still abroad but I have managed to get a scan of the NtO, which was sent on 17th July. Adding 2 days for receipt and then 28 days for my deadline to make representations, I think I have until 16th August to respond. I have copied in the entire NtO below, and then under that a draft of my representations, which are as per my informal reps but have been reworked based on comments so far.

I look forward to comments on how my text may be improved. I have not addressed the 'failed to consider' point that Incandescent made as yet.






Draft representations text:

Dear Sir/madam

At the time of the alleged contravention, I was loading my car, which is an exemption. I live at XX Blah Road and my car was parked directly in front of my house on the opposite side of the road.

I started loading the car shortly before 8:30am, putting two smaller bags in my car before securing the car and going into my house to get two more larger bags. These were both very large (113 litre 'duffle' style suitcases, measuring 82 x 44 x 33 cm) and were very heavy. They contained books and weighed approximately 30 kgs each. (I had cause to weigh the bags when I packed them some days earlier as I wanted to know how much these particular suitcases would weigh when filled with books as we are moving a lot of personal items from Australia later in the year and wanted to understand what it will be possible to fly back with vs. what will need to be shipped.)

I had to bring each case down 4 flights of stairs from the top floor of the house. The top two flights of stairs are narrow, steep and curved with delicate balustrades meaning I had to take particular care when descending the stairs. I also had to carry the suitcases level, not vertically, which would have been much easier, so that the books weren't damaged.

Getting the cases down on my own was difficult and took me a few minutes longer than I expected.

When I had both cases downstairs by the front door and ready to load in the car, I came out of my house to see that the civil enforcement office had just that moment put a ticket on my car.

The CEO saw clearly that I was struggling with a very large, heavy case when I came out of the house. He also saw me go back to the house to get the second case.

I am a resident and my car is registered at my address, as is my driving licence.

I have included a photograph of one of the large cases, which shows clearly how bulky and awkward these cases are to carry without help. Please note that the suitcase in the photograph is another one I have that is identical to the two case I was loading. The two cases in question travelled to another location just after I got the ticket and I'm not returning there again for some time so am unable to photograph them. It did not occur to me to take photographs of the actual cases when the ticket was issued.

Given that there is a specific exemption for loading, and I was loading my car outside my residence at the time of the alleged contravention, as witnessed by the CEO, I request that this PCN is cancelled.

Yours faithfully

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cp8759
post Tue, 6 Aug 2019 - 13:21
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I think your representation is well made out and if the CEO notes reflect what he observed, the council will likely cancel.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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