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FightBack Forums _ Speeding and other Criminal Offences _ Strange situation ( Notice of intended prosecution) apparently police witness but was not pulled over?

Posted by: DFella Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 09:23
Post #1670422

Hello, This is an odd situation, so I am looking for advice on what I should do and whether my case has any merit to be won in court.

I have recently received a notice of intended prosecution for " contravene red automatic traffic signal (motorway), contrary to section 36 of the road traffic act "
upon googling it seems this is a red X lane closure sign.

Now Im 100% certain I did not drive in a closed lane, the night in question I was driving to Dover to get the ferry to France so I remember it particularly well as it wasn't a normal drive, It was night time and the roads were empty, there is no way on earth I would not have seen a bright red X on a smart motorway.

Next it gets more interesting, so I email the police and request photographic evidence, this is their response

" Good afternoon,

Your request has been addressed to the Camera and Tickets Office for Bedfordshire Police and the Cambridgeshire and Hertfordshire Constabularies, however the Notice number appears to relate to an alleged offence issued by the Road Policing Unit, on behalf of Bedfordshire Police and the Cambridgeshire and Hertfordshire Constabularies.

This means that a Police Officer, whose details are given on the reverse of the Notice, has witnessed the vehicle at the stated location allegedly committing the offence stated. As such, it is regretted that we cannot deal with your request.

You can contact the Officer direct by calling 101 and requesting to be put through to Hertfordshire Constabulary, when prompted, as it will route your call to your local Police otherwise.

However, as stated in the Notice, you are required to assist the Police in identifying the driver by completing the form on the reverse. If you were the driver and wish to query the alleged offence, you can also include a covering letter with your response to the Notice.

Regards "

So a police car / officer has seen me commit an offence and has not pulled me over at the time?

How can they prove I broke the law? I honestly did not drive in a red X, they must be mistaken.

What makes this more complicated is the fact I ​am currently on 9 points 6 of which expire in 1 week, this date of this offence means if i get 3 points ill TOT up to 12 and be banned.

So, As my licence is on the line i wish to take this to court and argue my case, what are my chances of winning considering I was not pulled over, and there is no photographic evidence? I was also with my girlfriend in the car at the time.

Also, as I returned from Europe 1 month later I only had 2 days to reply to the NIP so I have returned it as I would have went past the deadline stating I was the driver at the time of the alleged offence.

Thank you for your help

Posted by: southpaw82 Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 09:54
Post #1670436

Presumably one or more police officers will give evidence that you contravened the sign. The fact they didn’t stop you at the time isn’t a problem for a prosecution. You and your passenger can give your own evidence that you didn’t contravene the sign and the court will make its own mind up.

Posted by: DFella Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 09:58
Post #1670438

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:54) *
Presumably one or more police officers will give evidence that you contravened the sign. The fact they didn’t stop you at the time isn’t a problem for a prosecution. You and your passenger can give your own evidence that you didn’t contravene the sign and the court will make its own mind up.


Thank you for your reply, I’m a little confused on what evidence could they even possibly have?

And isn’t the point of the smart motorway that the cameras enforce the red X?
If the camera didn’t capture me in the lane than isn’t that defence there was no red X?

Posted by: southpaw82 Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:12
Post #1670440

QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:58) *
I’m a little confused on what evidence could they even possibly have?

Live witness testimony from a police officer who believes he saw you commit the offence? Last time I was in court, live witness evidence was evidence.

Posted by: Logician Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:04
Post #1670468

QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:58) *
And isn’t the point of the smart motorway that the cameras enforce the red X?
If the camera didn’t capture me in the lane than isn’t that defence there was no red X?


As far as I am aware, the HADECS 3 camera systems fitted on so-called Smart motorways enforce only speed, not ignoring the lane closure indicated by a red X.

Obviously a police officer stating that he saw a crime being committed is very good evidence, just because cameras are used to enforce some road traffic offences it does not mean that photographic is required for those offences or any others.

Posted by: DFella Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:33
Post #1670480

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:12) *
QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:58) *
I’m a little confused on what evidence could they even possibly have?

Live witness testimony from a police officer who believes he saw you commit the offence? Last time I was in court, live witness evidence was evidence.


Based on what evidence? He can’t prove he saw me driving in a closed lane.
I 100% did not drive in a closed lane, is it possible to request time stamps from the smart motorway signs?

Also, I was burgled and the burglar was caught red handed, the officer didn’t go to court and the case got thrown out, they have time to go to court for minor traffic incidents but not for burglaries? Crazy country we live in right.

QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:04) *
QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:58) *
And isn’t the point of the smart motorway that the cameras enforce the red X?
If the camera didn’t capture me in the lane than isn’t that defence there was no red X?


As far as I am aware, the HADECS 3 camera systems fitted on so-called Smart motorways enforce only speed, not ignoring the lane closure indicated by a red X.

Obviously a police officer stating that he saw a crime being committed is very good evidence, just because cameras are used to enforce some road traffic offences it does not mean that photographic is required for those offences or any others.


From what I’ve read recently they do enforce lane closures too.
I even saw it stated on a motorway on my return journey home, that’s how I know I definitely didn’t drive in one as I wouldn’t have missed the warnings

Posted by: TMC Towcester Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:36
Post #1670483

First up - you're being asked (told) to name the driver. Regardless of what did/din't happen you must do this (pronto). They don't need to pull you at the time at all.

As said already there will be at least one policeperson who saw you (and that's all that's needed), there may be another. Whilst policempeople are human and therefore can make mistaes, if it was as quiet as you say, it's LESS likely you were mistaken for another car than would normally be the case.

So, name the driver (now) and either phone (my preference = e-mail) the relevant person and make the enquiries. Don't try and have a trial on the phone or start demanding 'evidence'. See what s/he says and go from there.

Did you see any closed lanes in that area on the journey? There commonplace overnight due to (imaginary!) road works. It was presumably M1 or A1(M)? Did you maybe miss one sign and merge before a 2nd - maybe try and tease out of the PC whereabouts s/he actually was (overbridge? If so - where?)

You're not out of options yet, but need to put the 'hard yards' in if you intend to fight.

p.s If you do phone (don't!) take a deep breath first - rambling on about irrelevant burgalries etc won't endear you to anyone nor encourage them to help....

Posted by: DFella Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:08
Post #1670502

QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:36) *
First up - you're being asked (told) to name the driver. Regardless of what did/din't happen you must do this (pronto). They don't need to pull you at the time at all.

As said already there will be at least one policeperson who saw you (and that's all that's needed), there may be another. Whilst policempeople are human and therefore can make mistaes, if it was as quiet as you say, it's LESS likely you were mistaken for another car than would normally be the case.

So, name the driver (now) and either phone (my preference = e-mail) the relevant person and make the enquiries. Don't try and have a trial on the phone or start demanding 'evidence'. See what s/he says and go from there.

Did you see any closed lanes in that area on the journey? There commonplace overnight due to (imaginary!) road works. It was presumably M1 or A1(M)? Did you maybe miss one sign and merge before a 2nd - maybe try and tease out of the PC whereabouts s/he actually was (overbridge? If so - where?)

You're not out of options yet, but need to put the 'hard yards' in if you intend to fight.

p.s If you do phone (don't!) take a deep breath first - rambling on about irrelevant burgalries etc won't endear you to anyone nor encourage them to help....


Thank you your advice is very helpful!

Would it be better if I instruct a solicitor to contact the officer instead?
How would I go about getting the officers email address, email the station?

Usually I’d just take the points and move on but it’s just extra annoying that my current point expire in literally a couple of weeks, so taking a 6 month ban isn't ideal.

Yeah it was the M1 southbound and I do recall a police car on an overhead bridge during my drive, there was a marked BMW X5 parked on one, I wasn’t speeding and I was aware it was there so driving in a red X still makes no sense.

Thanks! Oh and I wouldn’t mention the burglary haha that was just to point out the weird way the police act at times.

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:12
Post #1670506

QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:33) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:12) *
QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:58) *
I’m a little confused on what evidence could they even possibly have?

Live witness testimony from a police officer who believes he saw you commit the offence? Last time I was in court, live witness evidence was evidence.


Based on what evidence? He can’t prove he saw me driving in a closed lane.

Witnesses can give evidence by giving an oath and telling the court what they saw, if the court believes them then the matter is proved. Think about it for a minute: if I stab someone in front of 20 people but nobody films it and somehow I manage to leave no forensic traces, I can't get away with murder by saying "oh well these 20 people have no evidence that they saw what they say they saw, therefore I can't be found guilty of murder".

And you know this must be true because the criminal justice system pre-dates the invention of photography, and people were convicted of crimes hundreds of years ago when there were no cameras.

Now, whether the court would accept the officer's version of events over your own is the reason why we have criminal trials. You can go to court and try and persuade the magistrates that the officer must be mistaken if you want. You have to name the driver regardless.

Posted by: DFella Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:20
Post #1670513

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 13:12) *
QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:33) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:12) *
QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:58) *
I’m a little confused on what evidence could they even possibly have?

Live witness testimony from a police officer who believes he saw you commit the offence? Last time I was in court, live witness evidence was evidence.


Based on what evidence? He can’t prove he saw me driving in a closed lane.

Witnesses can give evidence by giving an oath and telling the court what they saw, if the court believes them then the matter is proved. Think about it for a minute: if I stab someone in front of 20 people but nobody films it and somehow I manage to leave no forensic traces, I can't get away with murder by saying "oh well these 20 people have no evidence that they saw what they say they saw, therefore I can't be found guilty of murder".

And you know this must be true because the criminal justice system pre-dates the invention of photography, and people were convicted of crimes hundreds of years ago when there were no cameras.

Now, whether the court would accept the officer's version of events over your own is the reason why we have criminal trials. You can go to court and try and persuade the magistrates that the officer must be mistaken if you want. You have to name the driver regardless.


I understand that but 20 witnesses is a little different than 1v1, If one person accused you of stabbing someone the police would investigate and try to obtain evidence that you did in fact stab them.

I find it strange a police officer can just say he saw you commit a traffic offence without presenting any evidence, it's my word against theirs, whilst theirs has more weight in court i feel this is an unfair system if they can make an accusation thats not backed by evidence.


Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:24
Post #1670517

QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 13:20) *
I understand that but 20 witnesses is a little different than 1v1, If one person accused you of stabbing someone the police would investigate and try to obtain evidence that you did in fact stab them.

I find it strange a police officer can just say he saw you commit a traffic offence without presenting any evidence, it's my word against theirs, whilst theirs has more weight in court i feel this is an unfair system if they can make an accusation thats not backed by evidence.

It is backed by evidence because their recollection is evidence. You are allowed to cross-examine them, if you can undermine their credibility you might get acquitted. I know of at least one case where a case was dismissed because the police officer was not believed, so it can be done.

Their word has more weight not because they're a police officer, but simply because they have no reason to lie (I'm not saying you would, just that you have more motivation than them to be untruthful).

Posted by: southpaw82 Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:48
Post #1670527

You really need to get it into your head that what the police officer can tell the court is evidence. You may not like that fact and it may not be sufficient to convict you (legally it is but it depends on the courts view) but it is a fact.

Posted by: TMC Towcester Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 13:11
Post #1670533

I hear and understand your incredulity/frustration, but imagine you're a Magistrate:

Police have no reason to lie in motoring offcences, particularly if the driver is driving otherwise within the law/competently etc. They do make errors as we all do , but those errors decline as experience grows. More so on an empty motorway with few other cars (where mistakes do sometimes creep in). You are right that other evidence would be sought in a stabbing, but if there were none the 'perp' doesn't get to walk and will be asked under oath to explain why he's there. The weight of evidence decides the outcome.

Defendant has every reason to lie - fine, insurance costs, preservation of licence etc. You didn't see the X but maybe missed it whilst talking, changing the station or a dozen other legal things to do when driving.

Whose evidence gets the most weight?

No-one here is saying you're wrong, but we have to be honest about the realities and consequences which - if you go NG - are a lot of cost.

No need for £'00s to call a police station - you can ask the individual for an e-mail contact of course.

Posted by: Logician Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 13:49
Post #1670540

QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:33) *
From what I’ve read recently they do enforce lane closures too.
I even saw it stated on a motorway on my return journey home, that’s how I know I definitely didn’t drive in one as I wouldn’t have missed the warnings


Can you provide any evidence that you saw it stated on a motorway, because according to you, you just saying that is no evidence at all?

I( can find no evidence that HADECS 3 cameras can enforce lane closures, and suggest what you saw was merely a statement that drivers must not use a line with a red X above it.

Posted by: Ahelpinggand Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 14:07
Post #1670546

HADECS can enforce red X

I believe we have even had some on the forum, but know they can as one of our engineers was caught.

Maybe worth asking Highways England or whatever they're called today for information on lane closures at that location at the time and date specified?

May need to be an FOI request but others can advise

Posted by: DFella Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 14:15
Post #1670548

QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 14:49) *
QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:33) *
From what I’ve read recently they do enforce lane closures too.
I even saw it stated on a motorway on my return journey home, that’s how I know I definitely didn’t drive in one as I wouldn’t have missed the warnings


Can you provide any evidence that you saw it stated on a motorway, because according to you, you just saying that is no evidence at all?

I( can find no evidence that HADECS 3 cameras can enforce lane closures, and suggest what you saw was merely a statement that drivers must not use a line with a red X above it.


" Can you provide any evidence that you saw it stated on a motorway, because according to you, you just saying that is no evidence at all?"
Perhaps I could say the exact same thing to the officer who supposedly saw me driving in a closed lane lol
jokes, ill find the article now

https://www.highwaysmagazine.co.uk/Highways-England-gets-Red-X-for-camera-roll-out/8905

It seems only half of the cameras are working

QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 14:11) *
I hear and understand your incredulity/frustration, but imagine you're a Magistrate:

Police have no reason to lie in motoring offcences, particularly if the driver is driving otherwise within the law/competently etc. They do make errors as we all do , but those errors decline as experience grows. More so on an empty motorway with few other cars (where mistakes do sometimes creep in). You are right that other evidence would be sought in a stabbing, but if there were none the 'perp' doesn't get to walk and will be asked under oath to explain why he's there. The weight of evidence decides the outcome.

Defendant has every reason to lie - fine, insurance costs, preservation of licence etc. You didn't see the X but maybe missed it whilst talking, changing the station or a dozen other legal things to do when driving.

Whose evidence gets the most weight?

No-one here is saying you're wrong, but we have to be honest about the realities and consequences which - if you go NG - are a lot of cost.

No need for £'00s to call a police station - you can ask the individual for an e-mail contact of course.


Thank you and this does of course make a lot of sense, I didn't mean to be purposely argumentative, its just very frustrating.

Im unsure what I should ask the officer for once I have his email tho? am i requesting more information on the offence or details of what he saw?
Would you mind pointing me in the right direction in what to ask for please


Thank you

Posted by: AntonyMMM Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 14:47
Post #1670559

Contacting the officer isn't likely to achieve anything at all - he/she isn't going to suddenly say "oh sorry, I made it all up", they probably won't even enter into a conversation with you.

If you are very lucky and they do answer at all, they might reveal whether there is any video evidence from an in-car system (or any other), but they don't have to provide anything to you at this stage.



Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 14:53
Post #1670563

QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 15:47) *
Contacting the officer isn't likely to achieve anything at all - he/she isn't going to suddenly say "oh sorry, I made it all up", they probably won't even enter into a conversation with you.

+1

Posted by: TMC Towcester Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 15:00
Post #1670567

QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 15:15) *
Im unsure what I should ask the officer for once I have his email tho? am i requesting more information on the offence or details of what he saw?
Would you mind pointing me in the right direction in what to ask for please


Thank you


My cynicism is that in all actual or potential legal matters, putting everything in writing allows for a record and doesn't rely on 'he said/I said' which are generally not of much value in court!

So, say/ask on the phone but follow it up with an e-mail playing back the useful stuff.

I'd ask where s/he was situated and - if necessary - so you can check with National Highways whereabouts the Xs were lit on the day/time in question:
So, context the question in respect of this and don't make him/her think you're going into a complex 'you didn't have a clear view' type of debate/defence.
S/he may also check with NH and - if mistaken - drop the charges (unlikely, but possible).

If s/he says they were on the overbridge at J9 for example and NH confirm the Xs were lit from south of J10 to J8.............you're pretty much screwed. Vice-versa applies of course.

I'd suggest being contrite and that you didn't see any and you may find an experienced traffic cop might agree about the crappiness of NH etc etc and thus empathy is built..........

Goodluck. It's a long shot but nothing to lose by asking. As per AnthonyMMM above, you may be able to elicit other information as well....

Posted by: TryOut Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 15:22
Post #1670573

QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 14:49) *
QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:33) *
From what I’ve read recently they do enforce lane closures too.
I even saw it stated on a motorway on my return journey home, that’s how I know I definitely didn’t drive in one as I wouldn’t have missed the warnings


Can you provide any evidence that you saw it stated on a motorway, because according to you, you just saying that is no evidence at all?

I( can find no evidence that HADECS 3 cameras can enforce lane closures, and suggest what you saw was merely a statement that drivers must not use a line with a red X above it.

HADECS3 systems can and do enforce the prohibited lane offence indicated by a Red X sign. They enforce the sign when indicated either on an over-the-lane AMI or a side mounted MS4 sign.


In this case the HADECS3 system is not relevant because the evidence is from a roads policing officer.

QUOTE (DFella @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 15:15) *
...

Im unsure what I should ask the officer for once I have his email tho? am i requesting more information on the offence or details of what he saw?
Would you mind pointing me in the right direction in what to ask for please


Thank you

The officer may give you some information but it is more likely that he or she will just tell you to wait for disclosure.

Posted by: The Rookie Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 18:53
Post #1670627

The NIP presumably tells the time and place of the alleged offence (if it doesn’t then that in itself would be a defence), so why not ask national highways for details of any lane closures in the area at that time?

EDIT, I wonder if he was situated after the sign and saw you pass in the ‘closed’ lane without knowing whether you actually passed the X or not?

Posted by: Logician Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 01:37
Post #1670666

QUOTE (TryOut @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 16:22) *
HADECS3 systems can and do enforce the prohibited lane offence indicated by a Red X sign. They enforce the sign when indicated either on an over-the-lane AMI or a side mounted MS4 sign.


Thank you, that's useful

Posted by: mdann52 Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 20:22
Post #1670777

QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 12:04) *
As far as I am aware, the HADECS 3 camera systems fitted on so-called Smart motorways enforce only speed, not ignoring the lane closure indicated by a red X.

A friend of mine who got a NIP from a HADEC3 on the M5 in Bristol for going through a red X the other day will beg to differ....

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