PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

956 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 

hcandersen
Posted on: Today, 16:20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


my second challenge could go in my favour.

wink.gif

Don't see this necessarily applies.

On the basis of the sign, you committed the contravention. Your only salvation would be if the sign is in the wrong place and should be at the junction i.e. footway parking is permitted in the whole of Furneaux.

But neither we nor you, nor, I venture to suggest, the CEO know. You would be asking the council to look at the legal document which refers.

So 'could go in your favour', while being literally correct - because it could also go against you - is not what's been said. You've been told what to put in any representations should you decide to take matters further. But you could still pay the discount.

You could also try and trip up the authority procedurally and go to adjudication. But £55 is at risk if you don't succeed.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486852 · Replies: 7 · Views: 98

hcandersen
Posted on: Today, 14:07


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


I'm not in the position to pay up £530

Is not an issue for the system, I'm afraid. They could just take your car but bear in mind that they'd need to remove possibly 3-4 times the value of the debt at that time because these are sold at auction.

You're focusing on what happened after December, but this is not the issue. If you moved out of your property in 2018, and you would need an exact date, then this is about why you did not manage your affairs to get mail directed and re-directed to where you were staying.

And perhaps this is just a matter of wording- and I hope it is - but 'to an old address' smacks of your V5C perhaps not even being correct for the address from which you moved in your first post.

Anyway, Sheila IS 'the short term': you have one bite at the PE, so make it good.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486799 · Replies: 9 · Views: 76

hcandersen
Posted on: Today, 12:00


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


indicating different parking rules.

Of course. The sign in your first photo conveys the meaning that it marks the beginning (i.e. it is on the border) of a permitted footway parking area. Therefore if this is the beginning in your direction of travel it therefore necessarily follows that it must be the end of the area travelling in the other direction.

And this is exactly what the 'P' with a red diagonal means, items 12 and 16 of the Part 2 sign table refer:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

Your challenge is simple:
I parked;
I mistook the sign as one indicating a parking place where vehicles may park on the footway and that my proximity meant that I was within the scope of its effect;
The CEO believed that the sign marked the beginning of a permitted footway parking area and therefore as I was not parked beyond the sign that by default I was parked on the footway where not permitted.
The CEO might have been correct in this belief and cannot be faulted for issuing a PCN.

However, it is quite clear from the authority's photos that I was parked in close proximity to the sign. Therefore, given that signs are only required to be placed as close as practicable to the point where a restriction applies and as the officer considering these representations has access to the council resolution which specifies the exact location, then the authority may not simply consider these representations on the basis of where the sign is positioned, they must refer to the resolution, failure to do which would, I would argue, be prima facie evidence of a failure to give these representations proper consideration, contrary to the council's duty.

For information, these are the 2 signs in question:

Item 3 in the Part 4 sign table indicating a 'parking place' where parking on the footway is permitted: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made

Item 12 in the Part 2 sign table indicating a 'parking area': http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made


Is the best I can think of with what we've got.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486762 · Replies: 7 · Views: 98

hcandersen
Posted on: Today, 10:21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


No.

The sign conveys the meaning that it marks the beginning of an area in which parking on the footway with two wheels as shown is permitted.

The sign must be placed:
1.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2), the signs provided for in this Schedule must only be placed to indicate the effect of an Act, order, regulation, bylaw, resolution or notice which prohibits or restricts the use of the road by traffic.

(2) (not relevant in this case) and


2. When a sign provided for in the sign table in Part 2 is placed to indicate the point at which a restriction, requirement or prohibition begins or ends, the sign must be placed on the road as near as practicable to that point.


So, there is no contravention if the resolution which permits parking in this way includes your exact location i.e. the sign indicates the approximate and not exact start of the area.

And the council officers will assume the sign is placed at the exact point and won't bother to discover where the legal area begins.

You probably were in contravention, but the crossed Ts' and dotted 'Is' require this to be proved if challenged by you.

But it appears you didn't with your challenge.

First question: was the discount reoffered?

Post their response and your challenge.

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486718 · Replies: 7 · Views: 98

hcandersen
Posted on: Today, 10:01


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


Their approach is b******s:

Picking up on the reference cp found:

Obviously your car is not a wreck or timber, so the council would rely on the car being an obstruction. This would require a very wide, purposive interpretation of the word obstruction, but it is not inconceivable that a court might accept this, though you might as well put them to proof.

When the location has permit parking!!!

They're making it up as they go along.

I'm convinced this should be in the PPC section as IMO this is a purely private parking matter. It is no different to a local council as Housing Authority removing vehicles from areas other than public roads on a housing estate.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486711 · Replies: 35 · Views: 669

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 22:31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


IMO, it is v unlikely that the court would effectively charge itself £100 for the OP making a deficient OOT in the first instance. Common-sense dictates otherwise. The OP would HAVE to show a manifest error by the court officer or that the authority misled the court.

Cp and I will never see eye to eye on this point but the OP's decision is not contingent upon consensus, so they must make the best application anyway.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486664 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 18:39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


OP, all we can see is grass. This could be someone's unenclosed front garden for all we know.

GSV please.

And as per the above, the council's pictures please.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486621 · Replies: 4 · Views: 92

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 15:08


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551




I was only there for 10 minutes to drop off my aunts prescription before work.

?

I was delivering my aunt's prescription to her;
I was delivering my aunt's prescription request to the pharmacy/doctors' surgery?

The prescription comprised what as a load?

DYL allow delivering, but subject to limits.

So pl tell us the details.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486563 · Replies: 7 · Views: 95

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 14:04


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


With respect to MMV, the absence of a legal duty to check on one's car does not create a cast-iron defence for being parked in a suspended bay, a car in a suspended bay is a car in a suspended bay. But sometimes a procedural impropriety might arise if this is the authority's stated reason or substantial part of their reason for not accepting reps.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486549 · Replies: 50 · Views: 1,528

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 11:02


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


Can we cut to the issues. IMO, your holiday is not relevant because you were not on holiday when the car was found to be in contravention, you were home and according to you, you park outside your house.

Signs erected: 7th
You were in your house from 13th;
Car in contravention 14th.

As I understand it, these are the relevant facts regarding the contravention.

Then there's context: when you returned home; where was the car parked; is it even plausible that you could get to your house - taxi/walking, who knows- without seeing your car and the signs; was there a notice on your mat warning you as a permit holder and frontager(was the bay actually outside your house?) that bays were to be suspended?

Then there's their reply. The reasoning is nonsense. They cannot move your car without first issuing a PCN, that's the law. They needed to move it, that's accepted- at least by me. They could then have exercised discretion to cancel on receipt of your initial reps and legal niceties, protocol and fairness would all be happy. To say they have found no grounds is nonsense. To say that they were not willing to exercise discretion is another matter, but whether in accordance with policy, who knows?

OP, would you bring this all together and forget your holiday for the moment pl.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486484 · Replies: 50 · Views: 1,528

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 09:45


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


Absolutely.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486458 · Replies: 44 · Views: 1,199

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 23:07


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


IMO, it doesn't. The paras. effectively refer both to the court officer(TEC) discharging the role of the court(DJ) and to any application for this initial decision to be reconsidered by the DJ in person: same para, just different procedure. But the scope of the DJ's powers are still circumscribed by these paras.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486421 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 22:58


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


OP, you've lost me:

You posted:

I moved back to London to my new address and carelessly didn't update the log book until around march time.

and then:

Hackney PCN (with TEC @ £203 until 24.05 which will then move to JBW)
NTO - sent 01.02.2019
Charge Certificate - sent 12.03.2019
Order of Recovery - sent 23.04.2019 - now this one is odd because I had definitely updated my address with the DVLA then and I never received it?


The authority use the address supplied by DVLA for the NTO for every other notice unless informed to the contrary.

Feb precedes 'around march time', so nothing unusual about this.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486419 · Replies: 25 · Views: 397

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 22:51


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


Do you have any adjudication decisions to support this belief?

My view is that, as soon as a charge is made for any general parking place or residents zone, a BB holder has permission to park there.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486417 · Replies: 11 · Views: 130

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 22:47


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


I see no point in getting the OP to pose a long list of fishing expedition questions which are secondary to the main issues:

Does the order create the restriction allegedly contravened, and
Was this given due notice at the location.

2 targeted issues. The OP's post-facto recollections lead me to tread a little lightly but still assert that the order was not contravened because the required notice was not given. If the authority reject, then they must provide a copy of the order's provisions as they affected the location and its provisions in respect of the siting of traffic signs and where and when the required notices notifying motorists that the order was in effect were placed in the road.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486416 · Replies: 31 · Views: 470

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 22:38


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


NeilB, pl don't take my comments out of context which puts the opposite spin entirely on their meaning.

For example:
Nonsense. None of that can happen. TEC do not entertain any further submissions from either party, nor such games of
tennis as you describe.


Which is exactly what I posted i.e. it is not some continuous, iterative and potentially endless process or, as you put it, game of tennis.

AND

If you mean to delay the N244, that potentially puts Mark at significant risk of incurring an additional bailiff charge of £235.


Did you read my post? I have merely stated what is in the regs, as follows:

Paragraph (4) applies where it appears to a district judge, on the application of a person on whom a charge certificate has been served, that it would be unreasonable in the circumstances of his case to insist on his serving his witness statement within the period of 21 days allowed for by paragraph (1).

(4) Where this paragraph applies, the district judge may allow such longer period for service of the witness statement as he considers appropriate.


This is the role of the DJ which I set out clearly.


@cp, costs are not normally awarded, in this case refunded. Each side bears their own. It is a commonly understood principle designed to ensure that access to the law is not fettered by thoughts of having to bear another party's costs. It is simply wrong to imply to the OP that costs could or would be awarded to them, in other words their costs rebated, just because they might succeed.

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486414 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 18:50


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


There are no road markings, pl confirm;

It is therefore a residents zone indicated by gateway signs 'Permit holders parking only past this point';

And you posted: 'where I reversed in to park. I have photos showing one route into the road don't have signs which indicate you are going into a Resident bay area (though I do accept there is a sign close by to my car but I didn't drive in that way)';

You are parked miles from the end of the road in front of you and, even if it was relevant, you would be asking an adjudicator to believe that you didn't see the clear sign behind, which would have no legal significance anyway because it is not a gateway sign, and that you didn't see any gateway signs because you reversed all the way from the end of the road???

or

You drove in from that end, there were no signs, you turned round and still didn't notice or consider the effects of the clear traffic sign??

I've seen members here work wonders with the truth, but when they're not given the full, true, story..........

And I'm often challenged or criticised for not being sympathetic. But we're not an agony aunt and often we have limited time in which to act, so I tend to dispense with padding. I'm a soft touch compared to many adjudicators...

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486334 · Replies: 11 · Views: 130

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 18:33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


The effect of the s14 order at the location was to suspend that parking place. IMO, this is different from imposing a restriction where none existed previously. I therefore believe that the effect of the order falls within ss14(7) and 14(8) and that therefore it is captured by and not excluded from the prohibition referred to.

Frankly, why risk an adj agreeing on this point when according to the OP there has been a prima facie failure to comply with a legislative provision, namely the Temporary Procedures regs.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486331 · Replies: 31 · Views: 470

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 16:39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


OP, don't be a tease wink.gif

On what date did you submit your reps?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486302 · Replies: 48 · Views: 1,248

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 16:03


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


They don't know you've made a N244 request, because you haven't.

Whether they provide the copy beforehand is not the issue IMO, you can add to your evidence once you've applied. You said they told you their reasons for objecting. Were any of these false?

I'm still of the view that you failed with your OOT as much, if not primarily, because it was not compelling as by anything the authority wrote. OOTs should, and in most cases can, anticipate exactly what the authority would say and thereby address these issues. Yours didn't.

I don't think you have any chance of being reimbursed your court cost because you cannot show that the authority lied nor that the court officer was not entitled to reach their decision. But you should succeed with your request to submit your OOT.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486293 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 14:34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


And there is no provision for including in the approved sign words to the effect that a clock must be displayed, then according to this argument any authority seeking to impose any time limit in this way must obtain the SoS's authorisation for their sign.

In the face of the BB booklet's advice to the contrary, I do not see any adjudicator buying this argument, neither have I seen any decision in support when the restriction requires display.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486275 · Replies: 4 · Views: 98

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 14:26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


Wrong approach.

You write your OOT AS IF you were writing to both TEC and the authority, because you are

On *** I made representations to the authority that I was not the owner of the vehicle.

This evidence was accepted by them and they undertook to cancel the PCN, but apparently according to procedure they first had to issue an Enforcement Notice.

I neither received this notice nor its successors and assumed that procedurally they had decided to save themselves time and the tax payers money and not go through the motions of issuing the EN.

The first I knew that this matter had progressed was when I was visited by enforcement agents.

I am sure that the authority are embarrassed about their mistake in this matter and will cancel the PCN formally when they receive this submission. However, as procedure has let me down once I dare not risk this a second time hence having to involve the court in determining this Out of Time submission.

Relevant dates are as follows. Enclosures include the authority's acceptance that I was not the owner of vehicle at the material time and a copy of DVLA's letter to the same effect.

Is my take.

But we must see these emails etc.

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486274 · Replies: 15 · Views: 223

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 10:43


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


This cannot be opposed if truthful.


Not quite. It may not be opposed if made in time because the authority wouldn't even know about it until TEC informed them that the OfR and CC had been revoked/cancelled.

We would certainly hope that all submissions are true.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486233 · Replies: 7 · Views: 145

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 08:49


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


Nothing's changed, you now register your appeal which for the benefit of yourself and other motorists I hope goes to adjudication i.e. the council do not cop out at the last minute.

With a successful decision behind you you could then write to the council and demand that their parking services officers undergo retraining!

But before going further, post the complete NOR, every page.

At present your grounds are procedural impropriety and penalty exceeded...circumstances of the case.

Even putting aside your specifics, their statement regarding the 10-minute 'observation period' (arrogance and ignorance, what a powerful combination) is completely wrong, and as for the 'well we could have issued a PCN later because you were still parked there'!

Wipe the floor with them, but not before you post all pages.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486213 · Replies: 44 · Views: 1,199

hcandersen
Posted on: Sat, 18 May 2019 - 22:53


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,932
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


We seem to be at odds here.

The OP claims that:

When I parked I don't recall seeing any signs. I live here so something I wouldn't look out for but pretty certain they were not there. I today managed to find the council letter on a lamppost at the bottom of the road but again wouldn't be clear to see and the dates adv April

and also that:

I could see the signs but I can 100% certain these signs were not there on Friday.


So we have 'don't recall, pretty certain and 100% certain'

I don't know what to believe.

There is a sign somewhere dated 21 March and yet we're not asking the authority what other signs were erected and where. IMO, asking about when they notified other bodies or published the order gets us nowhere because we cannot challenge the order nor argue that it's invalid, or if we are it's the wrong procedure, the RTRA sets out how this may be done.

IMO, the important issue is where were the advance warning signs erected. At least one was, so the council recognised the need to comply with the Procedures (their reference to Act is b******s and tortologous because all it did was amend the RTRA and they've already referred to the RTRA as amended!).
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486191 · Replies: 31 · Views: 470

956 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 

New Posts  New Replies
No New Posts  No New Replies
Hot topic  Hot Topic (New)
No new  Hot Topic (No New)
Poll  Poll (New)
No new votes  Poll (No New)
Closed  Locked Topic
Moved  Moved Topic
 

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Tuesday, 21st May 2019 - 17:45
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.