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Chiswick PCN in new residents zone
marklondon
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 11:25
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Hi Everyone,
Need a spot of advice for a parking ticket I received in Compton Crescent, London W4.
It's a 12r for not displaying a residents or visitor permit.
I looked for signs to say it was residents only but there were none in the street. There were also no road marking suggesting restricted parking. It turns out there are just two signs at the entrance to the street saying it's residents parking and giving the hours. Should there not be some kind of repeater signs in the street?
Secondly, I was in a van with a sign in the window saying I was unloading. From what I read on the Hounslow website that should give me 20 minutes in a residents zone, however the enforcement officer only observed for 3 minutes.

Thanks
Mark

Here are some pics of the street furniture





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post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 11:25
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hcandersen
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 16:21
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OP, why not just ask the resident on whose property you were working to take photos the next time they're out - you could leave the fact that if they'd told you that a permit scheme was in operation then you could have avoided this unnecessary penalty which if forced to pay you will ensure gets added to their next invoice.
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marklondon
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 09:05
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I've already asked them for photos and they sent me the pictures showing that there were no signs in the street.
I'd rather avoid confrontation with the customer and take a large part of the blame on myself as I actively looked for any indication that it was a residents parking area.
I've honestly never seen an area like this where there are no road markings or lamppost signs at all. Even the same new scheme half a mile away that has just been introduced has small residents parking signs on the lampposts.

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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 17:11
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You could call the council and ask what's going on with the photos.


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hcandersen
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 22:02
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??

they sent me the pictures showing that there were no signs in the street.

It turns out there are just two signs at the entrance to the street saying it's residents parking and giving the hours


Is the truth there somewhere? I've no idea.

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marklondon
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 09:05
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I don't understand what you mean? I've been truthful throughout this thread. I've no idea what you're talking about either?
I looked for signs in the street and couldn't see any. I find out later that there are two signs indicating it's residents parking but they are at the end of the street facing outwards so if you are in the street you can't see them.
Is that any clearer?

Can anyone help with my question of is the ticket still valid if there are no pictures provided by the council?
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 09:38
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QUOTE (marklondon @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 10:05) *
I've already asked them for photos and they sent me the pictures showing that there were no signs in the street.
I'd rather avoid confrontation with the customer and take a large part of the blame on myself as I actively looked for any indication that it was a residents parking area.
I've honestly never seen an area like this where there are no road markings or lamppost signs at all. Even the same new scheme half a mile away that has just been introduced has small residents parking signs on the lampposts.


Show us these pictures


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hcandersen
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 15:46
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You posted:

'It turns out there are just two signs at the entrance to the street saying it's residents parking and giving the hours.'

Nothing here to suggest that this was established 'later'.

If only OPs would start with I did, I saw...etc.

I parked; I got a PCN; after which on my way out of the cul-de-sac I noticed that there were two signs positioned.....(you subsequently posted about how a driver could be expected to see these etc....)

All we want is photos of these signs, we know the rest. I've given you a simple scenario: IMO if they were placed other than at the termination of the DYL then you have an argument.
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marklondon
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 16:33
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 09:38) *
QUOTE (marklondon @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 10:05) *
I've already asked them for photos and they sent me the pictures showing that there were no signs in the street.
I'd rather avoid confrontation with the customer and take a large part of the blame on myself as I actively looked for any indication that it was a residents parking area.
I've honestly never seen an area like this where there are no road markings or lamppost signs at all. Even the same new scheme half a mile away that has just been introduced has small residents parking signs on the lampposts.


Show us these pictures


They are in my first post

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 15:46) *
You posted:

'It turns out there are just two signs at the entrance to the street saying it's residents parking and giving the hours.'

Nothing here to suggest that this was established 'later'.

If only OPs would start with I did, I saw...etc.

I parked; I got a PCN; after which on my way out of the cul-de-sac I noticed that there were two signs positioned.....(you subsequently posted about how a driver could be expected to see these etc....)

All we want is photos of these signs, we know the rest. I've given you a simple scenario: IMO if they were placed other than at the termination of the DYL then you have an argument.


I've not been able to return to the location yet. I thought that the "it turns out" clearly implied it was later, apologies for not being more black and white!



Can anyone answer my question about whether the council have to provide photos?
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hcandersen
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 17:10
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In law, no.

But as a matter of common practice, yes. In this case, as the contravention relies on two (gateway) signs being displayed at the entrance to the road, it's inconceivable that the council would not have photos.
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marklondon
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 21:52
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Attached Image



This is what I get on the council webpage and I've emailed them asking for the pictures but no reply.
Can't see a phone number on the ticket to call and only a couple of days left to appeal.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 07:41
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So we have an uncooperative resident, out-of-date GSV, a reclusive council, an OP who cannot revisit the site, no photos and a discount period which expires on 16th.

I don't know what to advise..
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stamfordman
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 07:49
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Have we given up on the loading exemption?

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cp8759
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:58
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QUOTE (marklondon @ Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 17:33) *
Can anyone answer my question about whether the council have to provide photos?

At the tribunal, once the full penalty is in play, it is inconceivable that the council would not provide photos. But I would not risk the discount, if you can't get your own photos in time pay the discount while you still can.


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marklondon
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 10:28
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 08:49) *
Have we given up on the loading exemption?



Would love some advice on what the loading rules are? From what I've read you are allowed 20 minutes but it's not very clear.

I'll try to get over there today to take the elusive pictures.

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hcandersen
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 10:33
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I note you were in a van.

Is this registered to you or would a third party be involved at the NTO stage should we get that far?
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marklondon
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 11:59
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It’s registered to me.

I’ve just gone back to take pictures of the street entrance signs and they are terrible. I’ll try to attach them.

The first picture was my view as I prepared to turn left. Parking signs circled.

(Second picture) Even from the pavement opposite the side road I parked in it’s hard to see the signs as the left hand one is twisted.

Finally a close up of the twisted sign. It’s right at the end of the street, not at the end of the double yellows.

This post has been edited by marklondon: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:00
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hcandersen
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:38
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Go for it.

No reason, practical or legal, to site them there, in fact the opposite.

This would go to adjudication so we have to get the authority to commit itself:

Why not sited where the restriction commences which would not only allow a motorist to view the sign at right-angles but also without being distracted by the likely presence of pedestrians and being able to see approaching traffic, which is not possible when turning into the road.
Why have the council chosen to not place repeater signs along the length of the road to inform motorists of the presence of a permit parking area?

To which they're likely to respond..we're happy with where they're sited.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 13:21
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marklondon
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 17:05
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Here's my appeal. Does it have to be submitted tonight, pcn on 3rd, to get under the 14 day rule?


Dear Sir/Madam,

There are no photos available on your website for this pcn. I have emailed you on 5/10/19 asking for the photos quoting my vrn and the pcn number but you have not responded.

I approached Compton Crescent from the West and turned left into the street. As you can see from my own photos the nearest sign indicating the road is residents permits only is angled away making it impossible to read as you approach from the west. The whole sign post appears to have been rotated 90 degrees as the Compton Crescent sign is pointing along Fauconburg Road. Both signs are strangely placed right at the end of Compton Crescent making them difficult to see even if one wasn't rotated.
Why are they not sited where the restriction commences which would not only allow a motorist to view the sign at right-angles but also without being distracted by the likely presence of pedestrians and being able to see approaching traffic, which is not possible when turning into the road.

Once parked I looked for any signs on the lamposts etc to see if I was in a residents parking area. I am aware that new zones are being introduced near the Thames in Chiswick but they have small repeater signs to confirm the status of the road. Compton Crescent has no such signage in the road, just the two signs at the entrance (one damaged by rotation).

I was there unloading for approximately 15 minutes. I left a note in the windscreen explaining this. I believed, perhaps wrongly?, that commercial vehicles were allowed up to 20 minutes to unload. The observation time on the pcn was only 3 minutes. Far to short a time for me to get tools up to a loft room and get back down to the van.



Thanks guys, what do you think?

This post has been edited by marklondon: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 18:00
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hcandersen
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 20:44
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No, day 1 is 2nd therefore challenge to be made before 16th to protect the discount.

I'll have a closer look tomorrow.
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marklondon
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 20:52
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Don't worry, I submitted it at 8.45pm and 44 minutes later got a rejection email!

Thank you for writing to us regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice.
We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty
Charge Notice.
Your vehicle was parked in a ‘Resident permit holders parking only past this point’ area, which
forms part of the surrounding Controlled Parking Zone. Motorists are made aware that they are
within a permit parking area by signposts positioned at each entry point to the area. In addition,
there is clear signage at the entrance to the Controlled Parking Zone informing motorists of the
restrictions in place.
It is the driver’s responsibility to be aware of any and all parking restrictions before choosing to
park at a certain location and to ensure their vehicle is parked correctly.
You were given a Penalty Charge Notice for parking without a resident's permit that was both
valid and clearly displayed. Even if you have a permit, you have to display it so that a Civil
Enforcement Officer can see all its details.
Please note that there are no photos available for this Penalty Charge Notice. Please be
advised that photos are secondary evidence and are not mandatory. A lack of photographic
evidence does not invalidate the Penalty Charge Notice which was issued correctly.




I despair, all that effort put into taking photos and writing an appeal and they don't even read it.
It's all a bloody con.



This post has been edited by marklondon: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 20:55
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