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Time of issue adjudicator decision
greatscot
post Fri, 5 Jan 2007 - 13:14
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Folks,

Just had a read through my mates appeal over the 2 dates and it turns out in the eyes of the Adjudicator's that there is something else on Aberdeen's PCN's that render all of them illegal.

They are set out;

Time first seen XX XX

Time of issue XX XX

The adjudicator reckons that this makes every PCN illegal as it does note state the "time of the actual contravention". And he reckoned this was very important as parking restrictions are between the hours of X and X. This method of wording the Council have chosen doesn't actually tell you when the offence was committed, merely when the PA issued the ticket which is in fact more or less meaningless.

Just thought I'd throw it up for you guys to have a think over it......

This post has been edited by greatscot: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 - 19:34


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post Fri, 5 Jan 2007 - 13:14
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Wayne Pendle
post Fri, 5 Jan 2007 - 15:10
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That's a bloody good point and will no doubt have national implications too.

Can you post a copy of the hearing?

This post has been edited by Wayne Pendle: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 - 15:13
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greatscot
post Fri, 5 Jan 2007 - 17:11
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Sorry Wayne can't post the hearing as it aint mine. I've basically been handling my mates appeal but he aint up for press coverage or his details being released. But you can see it will work if that is the way the PCN is structured. But what I typed is basically what the Adjudicator stated in the decision letter. This bound to get a few PCN's Scrapped wink.gif


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Wayne Pendle
post Fri, 5 Jan 2007 - 21:57
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Cheers mate, I understand.
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eddie1234567
post Fri, 5 Jan 2007 - 23:44
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Gets even more confusing for the council

So it should have 2 dates on it, but now the adjudicators say that if it doesn't have time of contravention it is invalid also. I suppose this makes sense, he could have issued it "after" end of restriction, how do we know. But what ramifications does it have on:
Restriction ends 18:00
First Seen 17:59
Starts writing ticket say 2 minutes
Ticket issued 18:01

mmmm

Wonder if that is what they are going to appeal on, Time Seen is Time of Contravention (as well as 2 dates)

GS, Does your new On Street bay one have time of contravention. Can't find mine just now to see if it had a time of contravention on it
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Wayne Pendle
post Sat, 6 Jan 2007 - 15:56
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QUOTE (eddie1234567 @ Fri, 5 Jan 2007 - 23:44) *
Gets even more confusing for the council

So it should have 2 dates on it, but now the adjudicators say that if it doesn't have time of contravention it is invalid also. I suppose this makes sense, he could have issued it "after" end of restriction, how do we know. But what ramifications does it have on:
Restriction ends 18:00
First Seen 17:59
Starts writing ticket say 2 minutes
Ticket issued 18:01

mmmm

Wonder if that is what they are going to appeal on, Time Seen is Time of Contravention (as well as 2 dates)

GS, Does your new On Street bay one have time of contravention. Can't find mine just now to see if it had a time of contravention on it


I'd very much doubt that they could appeal on that, a High Court Judge has made his decision, it is currently unappealable and only a fool would attempt to challenge it.

The second time does make a whole lot of sense however is that what parliament intended when drafting the bill? No documentation depicts that as being the case at all. Again, however, like the date of contravention, without a time of contravention, how can the authority PROVE, that the contravention was committed at a particular time.

This time of contravention is as DIRECT result of the Jackson hearing and again, is as a result of the establishment's twist and fit approach to lawmaking.

A can of worms indeed.
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greatscot
post Sat, 6 Jan 2007 - 21:12
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QUOTE
GS, Does your new On Street bay one have time of contravention. Can't find mine just now to see if it had a time of contravention on it
Yes I have 2 tickets in front of me with this same mistake on it. I would imagine Aberdeen are going to be making some further changes to the PCN's again shortly.
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it is currently unappealable and only a fool would attempt to challenge it.


Well you would think so but I'm about to post more info about this on the Breakfast thread.


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eddie1234567
post Sat, 13 Jan 2007 - 14:11
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QUOTE (eddie1234567 @ Fri, 5 Jan 2007 - 23:44) *
Gets even more confusing for the council

So it should have 2 dates on it, but now the adjudicators say that if it doesn't have time of contravention it is invalid also. I suppose this makes sense, he could have issued it "after" end of restriction, how do we know. But what ramifications does it have on:
Restriction ends 18:00
First Seen 17:59
Starts writing ticket say 2 minutes
Ticket issued 18:01


Taking this a wee bit further, where a PA doesn't put it on the car, or hand it to you and you drive off it is not deemed to be issued.

Now in the scenario above he sees you car just before the restriction ends, he starts writing it with a contravention time of 17:59 (not quibbling about flexibility they may or may not give) and it is issued at one minute after, has this been deemed to be issued.
Your car is sitting in a restriction with no ticket on it, restriction ends and still has no ticket on it, can he now legally put it on your car after restriction end
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Teufel
post Sat, 13 Jan 2007 - 15:58
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there is noting which require the ticket to be issued and served simultaneous with the
contravention
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whitewing
post Sun, 14 Jan 2007 - 01:52
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ISTR there was a case a long while ago where the driver drove off before the ticket was completed, but the warden spotted the car later elsewhere & put the ticket on - I think it was upheld as valid on appeal.
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