Llanthony Bridge charge certificate, 2nd Penalty notice received 2 months after Options

[Water]

Hi, can someone please help us?!
We received the attached letter today, which is the first and only letter received.
It has a penalty charge + 50% increase so is now £90 !
We don’t live locally so cannot return to check signage etc. This threw me as it’s from Gloucestershire County Council, via APCOA with an Uxbridge address - all this is why I’m here. All these things don’t seem to add up. Surely there’s something we can do to appeal against this?

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[DancingDad]

You've said the important thing.... that you received no other notices.

This is now about process not the contravention so put what happened, signs etc aside for the moment.

The next notice in the chain is the Order for Recovery.
Which is the notification that the "debt" has been registered at "court"
The inverted commas are because the debt is not one that will impact on credit rating and the court is a paperwork clearing centre called TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre, Northampton)
With the OfR will be a Statutory Declaration which you can truthfully tick the box and sign to say that the original PCN (Notice to Owner) was not received.
Follow instructions on the form, signature will need to be witnessed at local county court (free) or solicitors (small charge).
Sending this to TEC in time will cancel the CC and OfR and reset to PCN stage, so council can then send a new PCN and you can fight it or pay the discount.

OfR can be sent any time after 14 days, must be returned to TEC within 21(or 28 days, memory failing) or it will get messy.
Phone council in 2-3 weeks and ask where my Order for REcovery is? If they say sent and you haven't received come back, we can point you to forms you can download.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 13:46

[stamfordman]

Just to add - is the address on the charge certificate exactly right for you (and is the car registered to you), and do you have any issues getting post. In any case as DD says, you need to check the next stage recovery letter is delivered to you.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 11:19

[Mad Mick V]

OP------Since this is Gloucester and APCOA it is important that you post all pages of the Charge Certificate.

The relationship between the two bodies has been questioned in the past and the legislation states (my bold):-

"the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent".

So there is a relationship issue that needs to be bottomed out if the Charge Certificate has been issued by APCOA.

Mick

[Neil B]

and, so far, it's duff on a basic bit of content as well. Plenty to play with later.

[Water]

Thank you all for your replies..
So am I right in thinking that now we sit & wait for 2-3weeks for an Order of Recovery to arrrive?
When it does we fill it in and return asap then wait again for the original PCN?

We’ve had no issues with our post & my details are all correct...

[John U.K.]

Thank you all for your replies..
So am I right in thinking that now we sit & wait for 2-3weeks for an Order of Recovery to arrrive?
When it does we fill it in and return asap then wait again for the original PCN?

We’ve had no issues with our post & my details are all correct...

And the other page(s) of the CC?

[Water]

Ah yes sorry. Here it is.. or not! I can’t seem to upload any photos. It says the file is too large?

This post has been edited by Water: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 15:28

[John U.K.]

Here it is.. or not! I can’t seem to upload any photos. It says the file is too large?

Try this:
Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:
Some are having problems with Tinypic at he moment.. try Flickr, where the BBcodes are concealed behind the curly arrow for sharing.

Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems. Thera are other sites, such as Flickr, which enable you to paste the BBCodes into your post here.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image - beginning with IMG and ending /IMG (include all the square brackets [ ] ), and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.

Redact/obscure pers name, address, PCN number and reg.mark.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

[Water]

I think I’ve managed to sort the second page... here goes!

[Incandescent]

I see that the telephone payment option requires payment for the call at local rate, so could be construed as an illegal demand for payment over that defined in law, which is the PCN penalty. This has already been decided at the High Court for payment by Credit card, where a council attempted to collect a fee for using a credit card and was shot down in flames at the High Court judicial review of the case.

[Water]

That’s interesting! Something to keep in mind I guess. Thank you!

So to recap, we are just waiting for the OofR to arrive?

[Water]

Hi all,
So today we received the attached. I’m unsure quite what to do now ������ On face value it appears serious?

Also just realised (probably not relevant, but in case) the documents we’ve received have been address to me as the car is registered in my name but my husband was driving at this time. I wasn’t even in the car!

Just reading back, I should have had a Statutory Declaration with this? There was nothing else in the envelope.



This post has been edited by Water: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 - 19:51

[PASTMYBEST]

That letter sounds serious, and it is but not for you. They should not have sent it, it is outside the regulatory process and is nothing more than a threat. I will bet that when an adjudicator sees that they will not be impressed.

The next and at the moment only thing you need worry about is the order for recovery when you get that you can automatically re set the process to the PCN stage.

Keep an eye out if you do not have this in the next couple of weeks come back. Do that anyway to see if others add any other advice

[Neil B]

+1.

That's misleading.
In any other sphere, an attempt to obtain funds by deception.

The Court will do what?!
FFS. No, they won't - not as implied anyway.

[PASTMYBEST]

+1.

That's misleading.
In any other sphere, an attempt to obtain funds by deception.

The Court will do what?!
FFS. No, they won't - not as implied anyway.

Neil, Mick, et al. Do APCOA seem to be a bit too involved for this far along the process and stating payment should be made to them?

[Incandescent]

GLos CC already have form on this. There was a previous case last year where it was shown that the Enforcement Authority, (i.e.Glos CC) were not doing anything at all in relation to formal reps, and leaving it all to APCOA. The adjudicator lambasted them, and they lost. This looks very suspicious and as if they have not learnt their lesson. This letter, well outside the process defined in law, is IMHO illegal and should be regarded as a procedural impropriety, except these only apply to parking offences under the TMA 2004. This is not under the 2004 Act but there the statutory appeal grounds of "the penalty exceeded the relevant amount in the circumstances of the case" was used for parking before the TMA 2004. It applies here, I think.

Main thing now is to wait for the Order for Recovery and submit a Statutory Declaration. A lot of grist is now available to the mill. Gloucester CC really are the pits, aren't they.

[Mad Mick V]

This is a bus lane contravention and yet again we have payment directed to a third party APCOA. This is not consistent with the legislation nor the actions which can be taken at the appropriate time by the enforcement authority.

The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005

2(4) In determining, for the purposes of these Regulations, whether and when a penalty charge has been paid, it shall be taken to have been paid when the whole of the amount of the penalty charge applicable in the circumstances of the case is received by the approved local authority concerned.

So a request that you pay a sum to someone other than the local authority is potentially prejudicial in that legislative time-scales cannot be met.

Mick

[Water]

Thanks for your replies once again - certainly puts my mind at rest!
I noticed there were exactly 2 weeks between the 2 notices we’ve received, I guess this isn’t relevant then.
We will wait a while longer and see what appears through the door next.
Thanks again!

[Neil B]

Just to explain a little further.

Registration of the debt, with the Court (TEC) is what we are waiting for and want.
At that time TEC will authorise GCC to issue the Order for Recovery we've told you to wait for
and which allows you to get this reset.

The Court WILL NOT authorise the issue of either a Notice of Enforcement or a Warrant
for a period of 36 days after registration.
That letter clearly implies they will do so immediately and automatically and that is simply
fraudulent imho.

and their terminology is wrong anyway on who does what, let alone when.

I noticed there were exactly 2 weeks between the 2 notices we’ve received, I guess this isn’t relevant then.

It's their pathetic attempt to save themselves £8.