[NIP Wizard] NIP speed camera Taylor Hill, Lockwood, Huddersfield |
[NIP Wizard] NIP speed camera Taylor Hill, Lockwood, Huddersfield |
Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 13:47
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 149 Joined: 16 Aug 2016 Member No.: 86,418 |
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Date of the offence: - October 2021 Date of the NIP: - 6 days after the offence Date you received the NIP: - 9 days after the offence Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - o/s ref 413469414776, a616 woodhead road, south of jct with Taylor Hill Rd, (Bi Directional), between Lockwood Scar & Sunny Brow, Huddersfield Was the NIP addressed to you? - No Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Registered keeper is my daughter, but I use the car How many current points do you have? - 0 Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Dark evening, tired after a long day, had gone wrong way and put sat nav on, so now on an unfamiliar route at national speed limit. It was dark and poorly lit, didn't see the change in speed restriction or any warning of cameras, as I came round a bend, the first I knew of it was a flash from a camera that nearly made me jump. Noticed then very thin modern camera and small 30mph sign. I was doing 42mph, which felt safe, especially as I thought I was in a 60 or at worts a 40. My daughter is registered keeper and I don't want to cause her any issues, and I possibly deserve what I got, but it seemed a sneaky place to have a speed camera on what felt like a national speed limit road. NIP Wizard Responses These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation: Have you received a NIP? - Yes Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - No NIP Wizard Recommendation Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 13:47:28 +0000 |
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Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 13:47
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Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 13:55
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,300 Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,602 |
That road has street lighting, so does definitely NOT feel like an NSL road. The lighting indicates a 30 mph limit, unless there are signs to the contrary.
As per the NIP wizard, you need do nothing until you receive a communication addressed to you. Your daughter must reply naming the driver. |
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Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 14:03
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 622 Joined: 20 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,668 |
Area seems to have a compliant set of street lighting which should have shown you it was a 30 limit and, rather sportingly, there is a speed camera and 30 limit sign before the camera
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Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 14:21
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 149 Joined: 16 Aug 2016 Member No.: 86,418 |
Yes, I probably don't have a leg to stand on, just thought there may be some way of explaining how I didn't spot it e.g.
- they don't switch the streetlights on any more on that stretch - the trees block the signs and / or streetlights I suppose I was just tired and not paying attention to my speed. My daughter will have to name me as the driver as that's the truth, so I will have an NIP incoming. Thanks for the quick responses. |
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Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 14:35
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
A course would be offered for that excess.
-------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 15:25
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#6
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,214 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
What time of evening was this?
Arguably if this was during the hours of darkness, a series of inert lamp posts which does not light the street is not a compliant system of street lighting. -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 16:17
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 149 Joined: 16 Aug 2016 Member No.: 86,418 |
What time of evening was this? Arguably if this was during the hours of darkness, a series of inert lamp posts which does not light the street is not a compliant system of street lighting. 20:08 I don't know if the street lights were on or off. I just know I was surprised, and can't give an explanation, other than tiredness from a long working day, mostly outdoors. |
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Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 18:42
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 557 Joined: 30 Oct 2020 From: West Mids Member No.: 110,385 |
I'd suggest returning at the same time to see if they are indeed lit
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Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 14:52
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 149 Joined: 16 Aug 2016 Member No.: 86,418 |
I'd suggest returning at the same time to see if they are indeed lit good idea, will try to do next few days .... looking at their image (details removed, license plate blurred) it's hard to tell but the streetlights might be turned off, assuming the light round the car is from the flash on the camera .... also there seems to be a car behind me with no lights on? |
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Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:01
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
It's not unusual for night photos to look like that as the flash and filter drown out the streetlighting.
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:46
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 938 Joined: 24 Sep 2014 Member No.: 73,212 |
What time of evening was this? Arguably if this was during the hours of darkness, a series of inert lamp posts which does not light the street is not a compliant system of street lighting. Councils have been switching off street lighting in many places for economy reasons. Would a power cut affect the limit? If these conditions made the 30 limit unenforceable surely it would be a well-known fact? |
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Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 07:53
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 149 Joined: 16 Aug 2016 Member No.: 86,418 |
What time of evening was this? Arguably if this was during the hours of darkness, a series of inert lamp posts which does not light the street is not a compliant system of street lighting. Councils have been switching off street lighting in many places for economy reasons. Would a power cut affect the limit? If these conditions made the 30 limit unenforceable surely it would be a well-known fact? good point, it's a bit out of my way to go back there - does anyone know if it will be helpful? |
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Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 08:34
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
If the street lighting is off you may have a defence of the limit not being adequately conveyed, but it's not a certain defence and will require some homework and even then no guarantee of success. If you don't want to follow it through there seems little point starting the process.
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 19:12
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#14
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,214 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
If there is no street lighting and no TRO then the limit would be the NSL
AFAIK whether lack of a system of lighting the street would mean that a system of lamp posts did not constitute a compliant system of street lighting has not been decided by a court of record. -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 21:55
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I don't think what matters is whether there is a lack of lighting. The legislation speaks of a system of lighting, it does not mention whether the system of lighting is illuminated or not.
Now, if the lighting were hidden from view for example due to being engulfed in vegetation, such that when it is turned off a motorist could not know that it is there, then there is a legitimate question about whether the limit is adequately conveyed (as Logician has previously pointed out, if the street lights fulfil the same function as speed limit signs, then logically they must be visible in order to convey the limit). If the system of street lighting being switched off makes the limit unenforceable, then it would mean that a restricted road is not a restricted road in the middle of the day, which is obviously absurd. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 15:30
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 557 Joined: 30 Oct 2020 From: West Mids Member No.: 110,385 |
Indeed.
The point being however that if driving in darkness and there are no visible street lights because they're off and obscured from vision the question is whether the limit was adequately conveyed. Street lights being switched off I can't see being a get out clause on its own as CP points out above but the question of the limit being adequately conveyed does spring to mind. |
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Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 20:51
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#17
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,214 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
The legislation speaks of a system of lighting, it does not mention whether the system of lighting is illuminated or not. You seem to have a far wider interpretation of the word "lighting" than I do. There is case law (obiter) which says something along the lines of a single lamp being defective, or slightly outside the 200 yards would not invalidate the limit as it would be de minimis. Whilst not strictly binding, this would appear to be somewhat at odds with an interpretation of street lighting that did not require the street ever to be lit. -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 22:47
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,572 Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Member No.: 36,528 |
If I have an iron and ironing board, I have a system of ironing, if I gradually start replcing my clothes with ones that do not require ironing, I still have a system of ironing even though I use it less and less. If I finally reach the position that all my clothes are non-iron, and the iron and ironing board are gathering dust in a cupboard, I still have the possibility of ironing if the need arises, I still possess a system of ironing, even though I never actually use it.
A system of street lighting that could be operated but never is, must in my view still be a system of street lighting. However, if the local authority decides no longer to maintain the lights and they gradually become non-functional, then there comes a point when there is no longer at least one working light every 200 yards, and the system is no longer compliant. As in the dead parrot sketch, it is an ex-system, it has ceased to be. -------------------- |
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Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 22:52
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
There is case law (obiter) which says something along the lines of a single lamp being defective, or slightly outside the 200 yards would not invalidate the limit as it would be de minimis. Whilst not strictly binding, this would appear to be somewhat at odds with an interpretation of street lighting that did not require the street ever to be lit. As Logician rightly explains, a complaint and fully functional system of street lighting that just happens to be switched off is still a compliant and fully functional system of street lighting. The issue of how long it's been turned off for is irrelevant, as there is no way a motorist could know if the light have been turned off because it's the dead of night or whether they've been off for months or even years. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 08:35
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 761 Joined: 16 Jun 2010 From: sw11 Member No.: 38,303 |
If the street lighting is off in the hours of darkness how can the motorist know that there is a compliant system of street lighting?
-------------------- PePiPoo will likely close in October due to issues beyond the control of any contributor to this forum.
You are encouraged to seek advice at https://www.ftla.uk/speeding-and-other-criminal-offences/ where the vast majority of the experts here have moved over to already. |
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