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PCN being in a bus lane
davidbright
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 06:42
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Hi, in Brighton there is a motorcycle parking bay in Queen Square that, due to changes in bus lanes over the years, is impossible to get to without entering a bus lane and impossible to get out of without making an illegal right turn or going into a bus lane. As it's only a short (35m) stretch of bus lane, I've continued to use it for many years, assuming that there must be some formal or informal exemption for bikes. The motorcycle bay is listed on the council website after all.

Anyway, the council has been installing lots more bus lane cameras and I've just got a PCN for Being in a Bus Lane.

It being impossible to get to a motorcycle bay without entering a bus lane isn't one of the 3 grounds for challenge listed on the PCN!

It's only £30 fine so would be easiest to just pay it but feel slightly aggrieved. I support bus lane cameras and if there had been any way to get to the parking spot, I would have taken. Many bikers use that bay so others presumably getting tickets too. Any advice appreciated.
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post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 06:42
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peterguk
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 08:31
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As is usual, post all sides of PCN, and link to video.

If you know the bus lane is being monitored and enforced, best not to use it. Complain to council, maybe they're unaware of situation regarding access to m/c parking.


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DancingDad
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 08:50
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It depends on how you cross the bus lane.
The video will tell.
Could do with a Streetview link as well (and the PCN)

There is a common exemption with bus lanes that allows vehicles to cross for access, such as to a car park.
However I have never seen any specific point of crossing detailed, except by a break in white lines and that is often not present.
Which means that it is taken to be allowed to cross in a reasonably direct manner.
This doesn't mean that the driver has to drive up to the entrance outside the bus lane and then turn hard left but equally does not mean that you can enter the bus lane significantly ahead of the entrance.
Same when leaving.
You can be in the bus lane for as long as needed but no longer.
Very subjective.

There is also an unofficial length that you can be in a lane without enforcement....about 3-4 car lengths, 20 metres (IIRC)
Less then that and an adjudicator MAY accept de minimis (too trivial to worry about) but councils probably wont unless they have it within their policies.
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 11:33
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This is the order on the TPT site:-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...Hove/BH101B.pdf

First, it pre-dates the Bus Lanes legislation of 2005.
Second, it specifies exemptions for prohibited turns and a motorbike isn't an exemption.
Third, it states at 4(3)(ii) you can cross a bus lane to access an adjacent street.

I would certainly ask the Council if this is still the Order which relates to this area--just in case!

Mick
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davidbright
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 19:48
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Thanks for the comments. It's not really a case of crossing the bus lane. You have to go along the short bus lane in D yke Road, or the long ones in North Street or Western Road to get to Queen Square. Coming out of Queen Square it is no right turn and bus lanes straight on and left. I went left and then took the first available exit once in North Street. That point is after the camera.

I attach PCN notice and google maps pic. Although its mainly a taxi rank, bikes and some private cars do go in to Queen Square so it must be permitted somehow.

I have emailed the parking dept at B&H council to ask how to access the motorcycle bay. I sent this before Mick's reply but will take up his point depending on the reply.

This post has been edited by davidbright: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 19:50
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Bus_lane_ticket.pdf ( 1.14MB ) Number of downloads: 44
 
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stamfordman
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 19:57
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As a Brightonian myself I object to the censorship of D y k e Road! May the devil take the system.

Seriously, looking at GSV is seems that some changes are very recent as GSV shows a left and right turn out of Queen Square are OK.

It may be that they've just forgotten the bike bay while taxis are exempt. There must be a solid appeal here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8240068,-0....3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 20:00
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davidbright
post Wed, 27 Jun 2018 - 20:35
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OK so, buoyed by the comments on here, I'm going to challenge the ticket!

If I put something like this:
Tick the "Contravention did not occur" box.
State that:
1. After leaving motorcycle bay the only options for exiting Queen Square are left into a bus lane or straight ahead into a bus lane. The previous option of turning right into **** Road is no longer available due to new No Right Turn sign.
2. I left the bus lane at the first opportunity. No left or right turns allowed at Queens Road/West Street, so had to do first section of North Street where I was photographed.
3. The motorcycle bay is listed on the Brighton & Hove council website. As it is also not possible to get to this bay without going into a bus lane for ~35 metres, it was reasonable to assume there is an exemption for motorcycles. Else there is a motorcycle bay that is inaccessible to motorcyclists which could not be intended.
4. The Traffic Regulation Order https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...Hove/BH101B.pdf does not show the prohibited right turn. It does say that you can use bus lane for access to an adjacent street, as I was doing.
5. I have emailed parking@brighton-hove.gov.uk asking how to access the motorcycle bay and have not yet had an answer so maybe they are also confused by the situation.

Does that seem sensible?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 27 Jun 2018 - 20:56
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Looks good to me - as long as the local knowledge is sound. Been a while since I've been down there. Make sure you file within the discount period - but you're only punting £30 if you lose it.

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davidbright
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 19:22
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I've appealed. Auto-reply says, "There is currently a backlog but we hope to be able to respond within 10-12 weeks."!

This post has been edited by davidbright: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 19:23
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davidbright
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:51
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So, just got a letter from Brighton and Hove Parking Services this week cancelling the PCN "due to technical difficulties unrelated to your enquiry"!

Which still leaves me not knowing whether there is any legal way for a motorcyclist to get to or from a council approved parking bay. I have replied but not going to hold my breath.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:12
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Raise an official complaint with Brighton council at their failure to answer your question re the parking bay. I'd be interested to see what prestidigitation they employ in their answer..

Raise an official complaint with Brighton council at their failure to answer your question re the parking bay. I'd be interested to see what prestidigitation they employ in their answer..
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